Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - Government Consultation

Bump/reminder
The extension deadline is tomorrow

I do think additional mixed sex spaces would be useful though.

"The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance."

That's great, but watch out for the slippery word "gender-specific". I pointed out that, as 'gender' is often now used to mean something other than 'sex', any legislation has to make it clear that these are single-SEX spaces.

This is really important. Single-sex facilities are already gender neutral, they are for males, or females of any or no gender.

If a female is on their period they will need a space that they can deal with that in, whatever their gender.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Fair enough. I have to admit i hate it too. I was using it only for clarity in the post. But will try and remember to not use it again.

You can find the information in the forum guidelines pinned at the top. It is indeed, as many women find it offensive.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Is the term cis-women really banned here?

cis-women

Please stop using this offensive phrase. It is banned on this forum.

I think trans women at any point of surgery should be able to use our toilets.

Ok.

What are you going to do with the females who will have no access to these toilets because they cannot use mixed sex spaces?

You seem to be happy to give away their rights and resources and access to any facilities so that these male born people may take their free choice from your described three available facilities for males.

Are you serious? I'm losing the will to live with this kind of male supremacist stuff, it's like those females who cannot make their lives revolve around males and suffer so that males can be happier and freer have no right to live.

Sorry abbie

I think trans women at any point of surgery should be able to use our toilets.

Hi abi

At what point of surgery do you think they should be allowed in? There are many surgeries available to men transitioning like hair removal, facial feminisation surgery, hair replacement (head), vaginoplasty with or without penis, breast implants, oophorectomy (spelling?) etc.

How do we tell who has had which treatment- especially at early stages of say, hair removal? Vaginoplasty is not immediately obvious.

What about hormone treatment without surgery?

What about people who identify as women but have no dysphoria and no intention of changing their bodies (not even shaving their beard like Alex Drummond)?

Where do we draw the line?

Wherever that line is drawn, say vaginoplasty (no penis) and facial feminisation surgery - how do we justify excluding the other people claiming to be part of the same group but haven’t got around to having surgery yet?

I have yet to see any evidence that transwomen are in any more danger in the men’s toilets than other vulnerable male groups like teenagers (experiencing unbelievably high rates of violence) and small camp men? I have asked interested parties for that evidence but they only produced that survey that you linked to earlier and tbh that was 6 yrs ago and in the US.

Life is different in many ways in the UK (our men have traditionally loved a bit of recreational cross dressing - a large chunk of comedy in my childhood was based on men dressed as women and the students were always off on tarts and vicars night etc - men dressing up in stockings and suspenders- look at the dressing up for the Rocky Horrir show).

So British men have been used to female presenting (and females who can’t be bothered to wait) people using the men’s toilets.

Approx 200 murders of women happen every year, I think rapes are in the hundreds of thousands, yet there have been no murders of trans people in this country since 2018 (one transwoman murdered by a partner) and no reports of attacks on transwomen that I can see (plenty of reports of attacks by transwomen). Someone told me once that was because of media bias but my research over the last year tells me that this is not the case.

An interesting website for you to start with to work out where to start with deciding which transwomen should be allowed into single sex female spaces alongside undressed women and children is transcrime uk- it gives quite a range of people we would need to consider how to exclude.

I think the gender neural bathrooms come in for those people who are unable to use either the men's or the women's because they don't look appropriate for either, and thus face abuse in both.

The link you provided also appears to be a self-selected survey, can that really be called 'statistics'? Doubtful. Also, where are the corresponding data from women for the just as vulnerable comparison?

While statistical analysis isn't my area, I really don't think that survey provides any reliable or relevant evidence for your claim that The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women; so do you have something else?

How could anyone actually monitor this? Say a transwoman has undergone complete surgery or maybe she still has her penis but has breasts - both 'look' female - how would this be managed in terms of access to women-only toilets? Or are we as cis-women advocating they need to still use mens? Or is this where gender-neutral bathrooms come in?

That appears to be US data. Not UK, so how is it relevant to discussions around UK toilet provision?

I found the quotes on page 201 particularly chilling, and I think they resonate with our own experience.

Good news! The Government's call for evidence on toilet provision for men and women has been been extended. The consultation now closes at 11.45pm on 26th February 2021.
If you haven't already sent in your views on the problems faced by women (inadequate number of toilets for women, so the inevitable queues; why women need privacy when dealing with menstruation, bladder weakness, etc.; the unwelcome trend to make women's toilets "gender-neutral"; etc.) please use this extra time to make your views known. Do you want your daughters and granddaughters to queue for the loo? If you don't, state your views to the Government before 26th February. Here is the official link:
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women

Please provide a link to these statistics, thanks.

I think if we're demanding women only toilets, we need to demand safe toilets for trans people too. The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women, thus I feel it is our duty to protect them too. Additionally, for people who are neither male nor female, without gender neutral facilities they cannot enter either toilet without facing abuse. If that's the case, the toilet isn't even functioning as a toilet!
Of course, creating gender neutral toilets is not in opposition to gendered facilities and women-only spaces. But in my view we have to ensure that wherever toilets are available there is a gender neutral option, otherwise we leave a group of vulnerable people in danger.

As several PP have underlined the relevance of EA2010, here's a reminder that Ann Sinnott's Crowd Justice fundraiser for judicial review: "Official sources provide unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act" closes tomorrow. This is focused on the EHRC, which continues to provide misleading advice and guidance, e.g. "If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your gender identity."

Not sure it's technical but I can share my top lines...

Current building regs
What we use toilets for, why it takes us longer, queues - Caroline Cruido Perez
The Butch Lesbian myth -Diva (letting lesbians down again)
Single sex exemptions puts the onus on women
Legislation and US bathroom bill (Biden Exec order)
Priority groups being created within EA
School mixed sex toilets and impact on girls (see transgender trend for media coverage examples)

DM for more.

A great points. Anyone got a basic technical email format I can send them as I'm too tired to think of what to write.

Good idea 3bees could you post and link to this thread?

I'm doing my submission now, typing about public toilets on a Friday night, I'm so rock n' roll