Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

I wanted to ask if non conforning women are being challenged is this supposed to be as bad as women getting attacked, filmed, raped etc by males? I don't think so. I've been mistaken for a bloke on occasion, it's never been a big issue and certainly not enough reason to suddenly allow males into female spaces.

The thread has been spammed with duplicate assertions that a lobby of masculine appearing women are demanding "gender" segregated facilities to protect them from being mistaken for men. The supporting information provided is actually US based lobbying for male inclusion in female facilities.

Gender based segregation can clearly not be presentation led as masculine presenting females are presenting differently to so called feminine females. The argument for "gender" segregation can only be based on internal identity which is NOT visible and is actually only definable as mixed sex.

I don't know if constant repetition is expected to become more convincing, when in fact it simply reinforces the redundancy of the argument.

It also reinforces their hatred towards women and complete ignorance of women’s lives that we see on each and every thread. hercatescat.

But at least the provide great examples of that ignorance for those reading. That is why we persist in answering.

Each time this poster posts something about butch lesbians, it seems they are simply using butch lesbians as leverage for their own gain.

That's certainly how it appears. Homophobic abuse in women's toilets is a different issue to allowing anyone who identifies as female to access them.

I am really quite amazed that butch lesbians (admittedly I only know a few including one of my close friends) are mistaken by women as being male after the first superficial glance.

Maybe because I have poor long distance vision, but I mentioned a while back on this thread that gait has been noted as being different due to pelvic configuration. Then up close, facial structure gives it away for me and then if you hear people talk rarely would you get that wrong unless someone like Paris lees who has obviously done a great deal to be the feminine ideal.

There are so many factors. Does jj honestly believe that butch lesbians are taking testosterone etc that will change these other characteristics.

I so rarely go by what people wear, as I myself rarely wear anything that is non-unisex and baggy. Plus I have no bust so me sticking my chest out will actually make me look like I am strutting and make no difference.

Does it happen to butch lesbians? Of course it does. i have read about people’s experiences. I suggest it is males who mis sex butch lesbians more than women. And it is should be something that is addressed.

Each time this poster posts something about butch lesbians, it seems they are simply using butch lesbians as leverage for their own gain. That is to assert that males should use women’s spaces whenever they want for those male’s needs of safety. Instead of dealing with the root of the issue- addressing male violence.

And repeatedly ignores the logic that if women were confident that only females were in their spaces because males genuinely respected these boundaries, non conforming women would have very few issues. oh, and if the spaces were configured that it was mixed sex plus a women’s toilet, any person who felt that they might be uncomfortable in a women only space due to their non-conformity leading to questions can use the other space. whenever they want.

JJ helpfully provided his definition of gender and gender identity on another thread:

I believe gender identity is the individually experienced internal sense of ourselves as male, female, or neither, which maybe produced by social or biological forces or a combination of both, no-one knows except it's something many people, not just trans people, report experiencing.

I believe gender as a societal force is a set of socially imposed behaviours which we are conditioned to perform both consciously and unconsciously and which functions to lock male domination over women in place.

This is what I said about those definitions:

That's more or less what I think of as gender, although I would have said that they were 'expected' behaviours, since none of us are compelled to comply.

By definition, 'gender identity' is an identity based around the concept of gender. So this 'internal sense' must be based on how well we feel we conform to the socially imposed (or expected) behaviours. From this I understand that 'gender identity' is the internalised form of how we feel about the stereotypical behaviours expected of members of our sex. So it has to be all about stereotypes. How can it not be?

I'm still waiting for jj to explain why I've got this wrong.

I don't think its so much people wanting to 'erase them from the debate'..as others trying to shoehorn them in to prop up their own view, which really, has fuck all to do with gender non conforming women or how they are percieved, and everything to do with male people, which is a totally different thing. Some women may have had that experience, if they did, thats shit. But it is not a common thing, or not among me and my butch mates anyway. Men call us men, often. But women know we are women, is the general rule.

Unfortunately you’re just a tool used to leverage support, in the same way intersex is co-opted to try and prop up the debate.

I’m a woman (a real one) and have never mistaken a butch woman for a man. I played rugby for many years and we had a high number of GNC women who were welcomed with open arms.

As always, women aren’t the problem.

The world would be a better place if we could ditch the whole regressive, sexist concept of gender altogether.

The idea that whether or not men should use the toilets for their sex depends on what they’re wearing & whether they’ve made alterations to their body is beyond ridiculous. The idea that someone should look at me with my Grade 2 haircut, hoodie, jeans & boots & think all that makes me a man is just plain bonkers.

I wish we (myself included) could stop using this ridiculous term 'gender neutral'. All loos should be 'gender neutral' - a gender nonconforming or 'masculine' woman can obviously use female single sex loos; a 'feminine' male shouldn't. 'Gender' is completely irrelevant. There is no earthly reason for any segregation by 'gender'.

So, no, these don't seem to be articles written by women arguing for the elimination of single sex spaces because that would be better for women.

No OldCrone. I read them too and did not think it was relevant to what jj was saying.

Not only that, but the sage paper used only people’s stories and only from one side of the argument at that. I thought it was a crap paper that didn’t address the issues they deplored women for expressing.

Not once did they address the real issues like privacy when doors have to be left open. the article talked about ‘adjusting’ clothing - fuck that. The number of times I have used or have walked in on women actually with clothes off washing and drying.

No, that paper was superficial and not balanced at all.

If there was a drive to introduce more gender neutral/ mixed sex facilities, more family changing, more changing tables in gents etc women on here would get behind it.

What we are pissed off about is our facilities being made mixed sex. We don't have enough already.

Thing is, there's limited space and cash. The disability rights groups have had to fight and fight and fight to get what provision they have, which is still limited.

Places like old theatres, the tube. Where do they put them? There are logistical issues.

Certainly I'd get behind a campaign for more facilities for women, more family, more disabled, more 'gender neutral' etc.

I'm sure many women on here would.

The question of where trans people go is separate to what this thread is about. But it does seem to have been side tracked that way.

FWIW I think that facilities and services like prisons, hospital wards should be safe for everyone. The prison reform trust is good to support I think. Many people are at risk in prison. The acceptance of violence and sexual attacks is horrendous. I read a heart rending account of a young man who committed suicide. It needs to change.

Everyone should be safe. However. Prisons should be single sex. That's just a given. I can't believe that is not the case in the UK.

Sorry rambling. There is common ground. We should have been allies. But this crass bulldozering of everything women have fought for. Up to and including our words to name ourselves as a sex class, 50% if the population that has been and continues to be oppressed all over the world... It's a no. It's a hard no. There's no other answer.

Thank you JJ.

It's happened at my local tube station. Now no women's. The men have a gents with urinals and a cubicle. The women had two cubicles in a different platform that are now either sex. Then there's 1 accessible one that is unisex.

As I'm getting older and have had a couple of kids I pee more than I used to. More than once I've got in the queue for the mixed sex. Men looking mildly confused at having to queue. I say oh there's a proper gents over there with urinals and everything and they merrily trot off.

No way do men want the longer queues that mixed sex/ no urinals will inevitably involve.

And some men do take the piss. When I was heavily pregnant and desperate (and before they changed the signs) I was queuing with about 3 other women and it was taking ages. After about 5 mins the door opened and a male tube driver wandered out and smirked. He couldn't be bothered to go to the other platform, obviously. The other women's cubicle was out of action that day.

I nearly pissed myself! And the other women were looking pretty uncomfortable as well...

Of course men will use things that are made available to them. Why wouldn't they?

I'm glad we agree that where women's facilities have been relabelled gender neutral/ mixed sex they should be changed back. Phew!

I think it would be a shame if this review leads to a discouragement of more thoughtfully planned gender neutral provision though.

Do you agree that mixed sex facilities in addition to separate female and male facilities would be a step forward?

I think it would be a shame if this review leads to a discouragement of more thoughtfully planned gender neutral provision though.

The issue around who uses the facilities is separate.

JJ do you welcome the government saying that public sector services and employers who have slapped a unisex sign on all the ladies faculties and left the gents alone, should change it back? Given our need for more facilities not less, and putting the trans issue to one side.

Yes it's good or no it's not. What do you think?

And women includes trans women, unless theres an amendment to the Equalities Act proposed that I haven't seen yet.

What amendment to the Equality Act do you imagine would be needed? Guidance would be enough. The GRA may need to be amended, I'll grant you, but it looks like that's happening anyway, so maybe a clarification on limitations can be slotted in.

Save your money for now though I'm off to bed, I'll reply some other time @NRatched

Night.

Chuckles, and wonders if I can negotiate a commission deal with the lawyers.

A VAWG charity would be nice next.

And for the Tavistock case. Thanks for the support.

Oh for fucks sake.

I mean just. For fucks sake.

The link on the op is about the government saying that it is not ok, and most definitely not the law, that women's facilities left right and centre have an all genders sticker slapped on the door, while the gents remains the gents.

That it's not ok and definitely not preferable for women, who need more facilities, are having theirs labelled unisex. So men have increased options, and women have decreased options. Whether that's through even longer queues as now they are sharing with men, or because women will look elsewhere to use to loo etc.

That has ZERO to do with trans anything. It's about the pervasive opening up of women's facilities to all. Which is not logical (we need more facilities not less) and not fair (men who need less facilities get way more, women who need more facilities get less + men in their bogs which they (we) simply do not want.

Nothing to do with trans anything, JJ. I note that the only engagement you have had with this point is that women should fight for yet more bogs (changing rooms etc) for yet more groups... Essentially say ok fine we fought to have our own facilities, we've been fighting for years for pissing parity or whatever it's called, and we get not very far. But yes have what we have got, won. Hand that all over to the chaps and we can start all fucking over again.

It would make WAY more sense to open up the gents as mixed sex. There are very rarely queues for the gents. Why is it women's that are all being made mixed sex. (The answer is of course urinals... But genitals don't matter do they?! I'm sure that was said somewhere upthread...).

And for the lovely Keira Bell.

Honestly, I would say men know we are women too, from the amount of times I have been groped by randomers Just seems an excuse at times 'oy oy, are you a gadgee or a girl?!'

Actually jj, the constant 'its about gender presentation' has me a little stumped. Because if its about presentation, then despite being of the female sex, I am very very much of the 'masculine' presentation, if its presentation that matters, not sex, am I meant to be in the blokes?! It seems to be you who is arguing about it being about stereotypes no? But then equally whining about gender non conforming women being disallowed in the womens?

This thread is glitching like hell..

Constantly needing a new mattress, me.