Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

Cubicles in the men’s?

I'm saying politics is a little more complicated then a bunch of people deciding that something trans women have done for decades is now abusive and so expect them en masse to put their safety and dignity at risk.
You need to take this up with the people who have campaigned and argued to change the goal posts by fiat rather than respectful discussion. Self ID and the behaviour of TRAs changes everything. Those who show contempt for others should be very careful about demanding it for themselves, or taking what they want by force.

trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women.

Thanks for acknowledging women are at risk of rape and abuse from males. As we all know this risk includes males who identify as transwomen. (Study and stats widely shared). Thus you must understand very clearly why we don't want males in our single sex spaces.

So gender neutral facilities for all would be too dangerous for TW, but making the women's single sex facilities mixed sex (effectively gender neutral) is not too dangerous? And what about the nightmare of trying to force female people to give up their privacy, dignity, right to any space away from males?

Again this really boils down to not wanting to permit any space to females that they are allowed to have as female only, doesn't it?

You chaps over-reached, which is what exposed that frankly, it was a damn stupid idea in the first place.

Tackle male violence against non-conforming males. Campaign for unisex loos.

But you can't have ours. We are saying NO.

& the more you say TOUGH SHIT, the more you reveal about where you're coming from. We get it.

Looks like you might need those mythical gender cops, right? The ones women don't need in sex segregated spaces?

Luckily we have a wealth of data both from the UK and every comparable country which have had trans inclusive toilets policies for decades that these have not led to increased risks for women.

I don't think it's an abstract thing for the females who can't share mixed sex facilities either.

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women. So imagine many trans people would continue to use toilets inline with their gender unless the law is changed somehow.

But you were a big fan of lovely inclusive gender neutral toilets upthread, right? But ok.

So now you don't want them because nasty men will go into them to abuse transwomen.

So you think transwomen should use women's toilets, whether women like it or not.

How, in that case, do you keep the nasty men who want to abuse transwomen out?

Looks like you might need those mythical gender cops, right? The ones women don't need in sex segregated spaces?

jj, I'm not addressing you. I have no reason to assume good faith or understanding about women on your part from your previous postings, and I am not here to engage in the futile exercise of trying to convince you that female people's boundaries matter. Your position is clear enough. I am content to signpost certain things for the benefit of women.

Please, continue to express yourself freely. Don't feel you need to direct it to me.

Ok, now I'm really confused.

You've been arguing for gender neutral facilities all through the thread, but now you say they're too dangerous for TW? That would probably make them too dangerous for females too, wouldn't it?

And yes, yes, a reminder again of your opinion that some male people will just invade female spaces without caring about females in any way and female people can't stop them. That's pretty established now, it's been thoroughly repeated.

This has just played out across the US. Thousands of women came out in support of trans women. Where it was put to a vote bathroom bills lost. When one was finally implemented in just one state it was a disaster. So how on earth do you think this change is going to happen?

But we aren't saying that we shouldn't worry about an issue that only affects a small number of people.

We are saying that we'd support them wholeheartedly to find a solution.

But you don't want a solution that doesn't take away single sex spaces from women.

So we are at an impasse. Which you seem to frame as 'male people who want your spaces are going to take them, & you can't stop them'.

It's hardly how to win support, is it?

And even if gender neutral toilets were introduced then it doesn't solve the safety problem because trans women will be expected to use the same toilets as the men who rape and sexually abuse trans women at the same rate they do other women. So imagine many trans people would continue to use toilets inline with their gender unless the law is changed somehow.

Nothing about the way certain posters interact with women on FWR suggests that they have an affinity with the female experience. This is all very circular, but what then do they have an affinity with?

No I made it very clear it was your assumption that someone born male had no experience of looking after young children.

good thing then that I did not make that assumption and was talking about women’s use of the toilets.

I hope all lurkers take note - no matter how many sensible alternatives to the purported 'problems' presented, the answer to women trying to maintain boundaries always boils down to "And how are you going to stop me?"

Dear lurkers, please, if you would understand what a male bodied person saying that in any other context means, don't be fooled into thinking it means anything else here.

Either there's so few trans people with toilet access issues that we shouldn't be worrying about them, or there's so many that they're a powerful lobbying force that we can't be allowed to think we can argue with, depending on the spurious argument you are most recently making. It's risible.

We don't decide that just because something doesn't affect many people we shouldn't worry about them. That would be a truly shit society.

And I'm not making any claims about a lobbying force. I'm pointing out that tens of thousands of trans people use toilets inline with their gender, many have done for decades and the government seems to support this as does the Equality Act. So without any change in the law and no effort to police toilet entry then how do you expect this to change?

All this stuff about gender cops really proves the point.
If transwomen insist on forcing unwilling women to share their sex specific space with them, when they have access to gender neutral toilets, doesn't that indidicate a deep contempt for women rather than an affinity with them. Do they really need to be policed to stop them abusing women's rights?

But there's no real reason they'd have to, jj, if they joined forces to campaign for non sex segregated spaces, which, as you've seen on this thread, feminists will happily support.

Your numbers seem to fluctuate a heck of a lot, though, & bear no resemblance to actual GRC statistics, so I'm not sure the problem is really as acute as you suggest.

Either there's so few trans people with toilet access issues that we shouldn't be worrying about them, or there's so many that they're a powerful lobbying force that we can't be allowed to think we can argue with, depending on the spurious argument you are most recently making. It's risible.

And I would still like to know why you believe I am stuck in the 1950s (not that it would be a problem to have been born then, but I was not).

Was it the reluctance to be in a state of undress in a place where men might be ( for very real reasons) or the stroller in the doorway or the fact that not every where has actually got disabled access toilets (not that you have ever had to navigate the situation with an elderly wheelchair bound woman anyway as you then admitted, did I get that right)?