Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

I've occasionally been mistaken for a man (admittedly usually when riding a motorcycle), but I've not experienced abuse as part of that. But I'm not denying that it happens to others, and I'm sorry you've had to put up with that.

What is gender?

And I don't know where you should go. Toilets have always been based on gender so I don't know where you have been going. I would have suggested North Carolina but that didn't work out.

Maybe it's just too curvebally.
I'd forgotten about the chaperone thing until just now - I'm really pissed off about it. And it made the penny drop today that if I don't feel safe indoors with them, I sure as hell don't feel safe sharing a loo with them or any of the (ever increasing number of) current trans women sex offenders when they get out. Which can only be avoided by providing single sex spaces.

But hey ho, I'm statistically unlucky to have met even one of them.

It influenced my shift from 'TWAW, bigots!' to 'single sex spaces are fucking important' - and I apologise to all women in that situation who I hadn't previously prioritised. I completely admit that I was wrong and it took multiple personal bad experiences to make me realise it.

For clarity not directing that at oldcrone.

Do you know I hear in some areas of the cities the women are wearing trousers these days? Where will it end. They'll be allowing us to vote next or even ask for our own toilet facilities, just imagine.

But why is it not enough that we DON'T WANT to share these spaces with males? Laying aside the risks / statistics / lack thereof, why can't you just accept that we want and are entitled to our own spaces? Even if there was no risk of assault etc, why is it not enough that it makes women uncomfortable or embarrassed, or anxious, nervous, unsettled? Why should we have to further justify it more than this?

Facefull.

Where should they go tomorrow?

Well, you've had 'decades' to think about that, to be fair.

& I'm rather more concerned about where my daughters & I should go tomorrow, if we want female only toilets.

Or talk to me, @OldCrone . Except you might not see this - my comments seem to be invisible to some posters for some reason.

Males in female toilets, no, that should never happen. Very tired of men telling women what to do and what to accept. Men desperate to tell women why they should accept this is just weird. Stay in your male spaces and sort your gender problems out with the other males. Women don’t have to make room for men.

This nonsense is just tedious and even if 99% of women weren’t bothered ( absolute nonsense obviously) the 1% that are bothered take priority as it would affect them adversely if males were let in but has no affect on the 99%.

Jj1968 Still waiting for the evidence male transwomen are less dangerous than other males?

I just can't imagine what you're describing, and I can't imagine women getting abuse or harassment for dressing in a 'masculine' style, because it's quite normal for women to dress like that.

Then perhaps talk to some butch lesbians about the shit they get sometimes.

Actually, my mistake jj - you said '50,000'. Which is still quite a lot, to be fair.

Definitely enough to make a case for separate provision with unisex facilities they can freely access

Was it appropriate for me to be told to ask Karen Jones to be a female chaperone when my CPTSD was triggered by being in my home with males? (I needed work doing in my house, which is why I needed a female chaperone).

It isn't 'lots' of transwomen, is it though? Given that the vast majority don't have surgery or take hormones. & obviously, a unisex toilet would have cubicles. As, for that matter, does a men's toilet.

& you can't very well keep simultaneously arguing that hardly any male transwomen would want in to a supposedly 'trans inclusive women's toilet', as opposed to a unisex one, alongside there being what was it? '500,000' transwomen routinely using female facilities for 'decades'?

So where is the evidence that males who are transwomen are less dangerous to women than other males?

I guess for these purposes it comes down to whether you have faced abuse or harassment because your gender presentation is at odds with that which is typical for what someone assumes your sex is. If you never have you are probably visibly pretty gender conforming.

I'm just wondering what sort of 'gender presentation' would be atypical for a woman. Can you give some examples? You could post some pictures if that's easier than describing. I just can't imagine what you're describing, and I can't imagine women getting abuse or harassment for dressing in a 'masculine' style, because it's quite normal for women to dress like that.

"..........something trans women have done for decades is now abusive and so expect them en masse to put their safety and dignity at risk. I just can't see how that is going to happen, espcially because the number of people who object to trans inclusive toilet policies appear to be pretty tiny."

And yet you are demanding that biological women and girls put THEIR dignity, privacy and safety at risk by allowing males into their private and safe spaces. Why does your perceived right to these things trump theirs? And for what it's worth I don't believe that the number of woman who object is tiny. Most of them probably put up and shut up because that is what a lot of woman do.

The vast majority of women face abuse and harassment because they are female. Hardly any woman has not experienced such harassment from male strangers just because they are female. So why would we want males in places where we are vulnerable?

So no actual difference, then, in that anyone who wanted to could use either?

Well in theory perhaps you could argue no difference, in practice however we have had trans inclusive toilets for decades, it is normal practice in many parts of thw world, and those toilets are not half full of blokes. Just because something could happen it doesn't mean that is what will happen.