Women win guarantee over female only public lavatories - the Times

Sorry but the "South of Watford" videos of Leigh Bowery which appear after the one you linked to seem to me to have inspired Barbie Kardashian's look.

I think because hundreds of butch lesbians are getting a lot of grief, Dido.

I'm sure it happens. Which is a consequence of

A. Trans rights activists making women suspicious

And

B. Very narrow ideas about how females 'present'

The first. Hmm. Thing women tend to be on the shorter side, have boobs and hips, higher voices, and female socialisation.
I'm not buying that women can't tell and are getting all violent all the time like it's a massive thing. I'm sure it has happened. And women can be nasty/ homophobic. But honestly the most hard masculine styled woman I ever saw (shaved head, covered in tattoos, acting as a bouncer at a women only conference that had been threatened by TRAs back in... 2011 or something) was obviously a woman.
I mean... I think it's men who mainly identify 'female' by certain things. Hair. Boobs. Nails. That sort of thing. Hence they ogle 10yo and over 40s often become invisible. They have a narrow view of 'woman' and it's all based in boobs and clothes.

The second. See above.

It's men who got super confused on big brother when the man they knew got his drag stuff on. Nails, massive hair, tiny skirt etc. He looked good. The men didn't like it. Because he had the trappings of 'sexy lady: but they knew he was a man.

It's all about how men think, feel, experience the world.

It's depressing as fuck tbh.

For anyone less old... Here's Leigh :)

(I forget whether I'm supposed to be for or against gender conformity according to JJ. Oh well...)

There are plenty of women arguing against toilets based on birth sex on the basis they will be bad for women

Are there? Where and who?

I don't feel particularly strongly about single sex toilets. My personal preference would be unisex individual floor to ceiling cubicles (and I can't say I've ever come across all the womanly/girly bonding which apparently goes on- quite the opposite at around age 15 when I was being bullied at school by a group of girls)

I've seen the other odd poster or 2 on here with the same preference but I don't feel strongly enough to campaign for what I want.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone saying single sex toilets based on birth sex are bad for women (my own fairly short term experience excepted)

Why would they be bad?

I used to go out to a gay club when I was at university.

My lesbian flatmate and her mates took me along.

I liked it because I didn't get hassled by men.

I have always felt guilty about heading onto the lesbian floor when I'm not gay or even bi. So I'm sorry about that to any lesbians who may be reading.

And the point to that post is twofold.

1. Women know what women look like. Irrespective of gender presentation. We're animals, mammals. We know what male and female are FFS. I was in no way confused as to who were on the lesbian floor and who were on the much larger floor for gay men. And nor was anyone else! I did go for a dance on the blokes floor once with a small breakout group of women from upstairs... The men were Not Happy. Why? Because they were there to dance with men... So I need to apologise to the gay men as well for intruding on their hard won space.

I was a bit of a dick there really wasn't I. I knew it wasn't a place for me, I knew it was hard won. And I went anyway, to get away from het men.

Now all that is gone I suppose. Anyone and everyone can go anywhere with a stick on identity. No more male only heaving dancefloor. No more lesbian place where if they don't know you or you don't meet (JJ you'll like this!) some of the norms of lesbian fashion at that time you essentially had to be vouched for :)

I apologise to anyone who used to hit up paradise in the early 90s in Manchester :)

Erm rambling. Back to my twofold point.

1. Women and men know who women and men are in the vast vast majority of situations. If you think it's down to hairstyles and clothes to tell male and female then a. You're a bit odd and b. Go and watch some Bowie or Lennox, or even better, refresh your memory on Leigh Bowery :)

1. Respect for the hard fought spaces of other groups is important. I know I shouldn't have been there. I was young. I wanted to get away from het men. It wasn't ok though

I'm distracted by Leigh on YouTube now :D

Thank to to all the women who have managed to get the arguments out there...invaluable for those coming over from other boards. Also invaluable to see the way in which when men can’t stop women saying no, but carry on anyway. Your time has been well used.

Still catching up but the part of the thread I'm at JJ seems to be expressing a genuine and deep dear of violence/ sexual assault from men.

Women understand that fear JJ. We live with it from the first time we have a look, comment, action aimed at us from a man or men that tells us we are sexual objects to be consumed. This starts young. Very young. It's scary. You go from child that is happy go lucky to these things you don't understand, as soon as you get tall enough, or your breasts start growing.

My daughter is 2 inches taller than me, and has long blonde hair. Puberty started some years ago so she has some curves and boobs. Men have started looking. It started last school year. She usually had her best friend (cuddly toy) with her when it started because she was 10. At primary school.

The women on these boards, across MN. Across society. Have been variously leered at, followed, propositioned, sworn at, insulted, masturbated at, followed, hassled, asked to 'get in the car', felt up, shouted at, fronted up to, etc etc etc . And that's before you get onto the stuff that society would start to even recognise as a crime.

We know what men are like. We know only too well.

Ok you're scared of men. Lots of men are scared of other men. Especially men who are not gender nonconforming. Whether that's through being gay (heterosexuality being a key part of gender/sex role role) or being small, weak, not liking football, dressing in an unusual way or whatever else toxic masculinity says is lesser.

But all of these men can't come in with women for protection! Especially not when the 'rules' say that any man can come in with the women, not just the ones who are at risk.

You are right that women are getting not very far with male violence. We have little voice and society sees it as the norm.

What would help everyone would be to get together and really work on the whole issue of why men behave this way and how it can be reduced.

What helps no one at all is saying well this one group of men who are at risk from other men can go in with the women for protection. Even though opening that door does nothing to help other men at risk. And also lets in any man who wants to come in who may be violent etc.

It's a shit solution.

I understand you're scared. If I read the tone earlier right. But this is not the answer. It's a shit solution for everyone. No challenge to violent men or the society that sees it as the norm. Increased danger for women and girls. Dodgy men invited into places we used to feel ok...

Yeah it's a shit solution all round.

Not expecting any reply from JJ to that essay, but anyway...

That they should just take it for the team? That they are acceptable collateral damage?

Appears to be what you think about women generally, jj, doesn't it? An acceptable solution to this issue is never going to be that women cannot challenge obvious males in single sex female spaces.

I'll say thanks too (and thank you @Escapeplanning !)- any ££ support her case can get helps women like me. I'd rather a solicitor helps assemble and present it (even if it's not pro bono) than it all just be on her shoulders

Just catching up and want to say WHAT THE FUCK to this from JJ

'I can't find any statistics on assaults of gay men in toilets. I imagine it's very rare'

I can't quite believe I just read that.

My jaw literally dropped open.

JJ is on the side of who then, exactly? Not women, not gay men...???!!!

Night.

Ann Sinnot said thanks jj

Only 14 more pages to go. Night night all!😪🛏️

A butch lesbian just raised exactly these concerns on this forum. No-one answered her point. Perhaps that's why you think they don't exist. You refuse to see them because it undermines your point.

Which thread? Can you link to the post?

I cannot think of a more insidious way to socially enforce gender conformity.

I can. Teaching children that if they don't conform to regressive gender stereotypes that they must be transgender. This is going on in schools now.

jj I take women's concerns very seriously and I'm sorry that she had a bad experience. You used the word 'plenty' so I'm wondering where the other examples are, aside from an article from 2013.

Well no, advocating for lesbians wouldn't really involve sharing links from autostraddle, the online publication that likes to explain to lesbians how they can perform great fellatio.

Ok. We will resign ourselves to being told to increase our risk of rape as women, in order to make sure butch women are equally at risk of rape, but it will reduce their risk of being challenged.

Why can't we reduce the risk towards women from males while educating each other about butch women (if we didn't already know and welcome them)? Or is that preposterous?

And no I didn't come here to advocate for lesbians

We think you probably did jj. (Wink)

Thanks, that will be ten quid for Ann Sinnots case on your behalf jj 1968

Next.

There are plenty of women arguing against toilets based on birth sex on the basis they will be bad for women.

Where?

And no I didn't come here to advocate for lesbians. But I have consistently made the point that I think any attempt to police toilets based on physical sex would be hugely detrimental and not just to trans people. I think it would empower every misogynist and homophobic security guard and anyone else to have a free pass to harass people in toilets because they don't meet the correct standards of femininity or quite possibly masculinity in the case of mens toilets. I cannot think of a more insidious way to socially enforce gender conformity. I think it would be an authoritarian nightmare, which hopefully would end up being scrapped just as quickly as it was when it was attempted in North Carolina.

Aw, bless you, Bernard and Datun!

I wasn't around in the Kleenex pun days. I think I would have liked them
Did they suffer once 'man size' got rebranded as 'extra large"'?

Every time jj does the butch lesbian thing from now on I'm going to donate a tenner dedicated to jj on Mumsnet to a crowd funder.

I can't go out or away for the next month so I will enjoy spending the cash on these good causes for jj.