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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am being asked to go into a meeting and introduce my pronouns to everyone in an hour and a half!

312 replies

WhatTheFuckHappenedHere · 29/10/2020 11:35

I am part of a work group tasked with running a big event that will take almost a year to plan. The first meeting is in an hour and a half over Zoom. The organiser, who I've never met, and goes by they/them pronouns according to the email signature, sent round an email reminder this morning with the meeting link, and including an agenda. The first thing on it is to introduce ourselves, our work area, an our gender pronouns. I don't really want to do this, but I need to work with this person and the group as a whole for the best part of a year! I'm feeling like I'll just have to go along with it lest I get accused of enacting literal and actual violence. Any advice?

OP posts:
EBearhug · 30/10/2020 10:06

I've read one or two articles/interviews with individuals who use they/them, it becomes a real struggle, and very confusing as one naturally defaults to understanding it as a plural in much of the text.
Pronouns are sometimes confusing. I had to ask a colleague which "him" he was referring to, because it wasn't clear.

NoSquirrels · 30/10/2020 09:33

@Waiohwai

I have seen that there has been a push recently for everyone, not just trans people, to declare their pronouns. This is not actually for any actual helpful reason (I mean how did we all manage before we had been specifically told what each other's pronouns are?!) but to stop trans people feeling singled out, because it 'outs' them as trans if they are the only one declaring their pronouns. Or something. Does it not occur to these people that if you need to declare your pronouns in order for people to get it 'right', you're already out as trans....
Yes, this “If everyone does it it’s normal” argument really fucks me off. It’s actually not normal to dictate how other people refer to you, regardless of the reason.
NoSquirrels · 30/10/2020 09:30

In person, I’d ignore firstly, but say, in a cheerful tone, if pressed, “Pronouns? Oh, I’m happy however you refer to me. If in doubt use [my name], I guess?” With an inflection to suggest, well, duh, have you no common sense?

Mandated or strongly suggested email signature or other written declaration: nope, and would be happy to explain to HR exactly why not.

Italiangreyhound · 30/10/2020 09:09

My favourite retort is 'My pronouns are Me, My, Mine.' But I've not had the courage to use that in any pc circles!

Waiohwai · 30/10/2020 09:02

I have seen that there has been a push recently for everyone, not just trans people, to declare their pronouns. This is not actually for any actual helpful reason (I mean how did we all manage before we had been specifically told what each other's pronouns are?!) but to stop trans people feeling singled out, because it 'outs' them as trans if they are the only one declaring their pronouns. Or something.
Does it not occur to these people that if you need to declare your pronouns in order for people to get it 'right', you're already out as trans....

StealthPolarBear · 30/10/2020 09:02

So the new form is asking for people to state their pronouns. Is the meeting organiser clear why you're asking for this info and what it'll be used for?

Sometimesonly · 30/10/2020 08:06

*remember or

Sometimesonly · 30/10/2020 08:05

Glad it went well. I must admit I would be tempted to say something like "My pronouns are he/her. hard stare "Please note I will regard anyone using she/his as committing actual violence".

In real life I use the pronouns requested but have been known to get it wrong. I'm only human. It is not easy to remember it even use the right pronouns at all especially if you're using multiple languages so it should always be clear that you won't be chastised for getting them wrong.

Italiangreyhound · 30/10/2020 03:27

Glad it went well. Thanks

EarthSight · 30/10/2020 00:42

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FannyCann · 30/10/2020 00:31

Totally agree WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

I've read one or two articles/interviews with individuals who use they/them, it becomes a real struggle, and very confusing as one naturally defaults to understanding it as a plural in much of the text.

"After finishing school they went on to RADA" easy enough, and neutral, but then you come to "they joined a group called The Specials and they toured the UK with great success" suddenly "they" is referring to the group until you add "as a backing singer"...

(I used to quite like the Specials and enjoyed a live show, I have no idea if they have special pronouns these days.)

FannyCann · 30/10/2020 00:21

I'm tempted to contact my "workplace" administrator with that one FairFridaythe13th Grin

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 30/10/2020 00:09

There is nothing wrong with 'they' and 'them if you're talking about a hypothetical person or somebody of unknown sex - and I would agree that these are genuinely neutral terms in this context; but in what way is it 'neutral' to default to 'them' for a person identifying as Miss, Mrs or Ms? Of the people who use these titles, 99.999% of them identify as 'she/her', so why ever would anybody think it neutral to assume that somebody is one of the 0.0001%?

It's not like the sky is going to fall in if the wrong sex-based pronoun (or one that the person in question rejects) is used:
"I'm meeting a friend for lunch today."
"Oh, nice - where are you meeting her?"
"Him, actually - we're going to the new cafe in the high street."
"Sounds great - hope you both have a nice time."
Not awkward in any way.

Pronouns are not a value judgement - just a socially-accepted way of referring to somebody - and neither standard one is better or worse. Your pronouns don't own you, define you or dictate what you can or can't do with your life, any more than the name of the road you happen to buy a house on.

FairFridaythe13th · 29/10/2020 23:26

“I don’t celebrate birthdays. It was my 8th birthday when we went for a family picnic in Yosemite park. We set up camp next to old faithful. A freak hot blast and my entire family was spontaneously combusted, apart from me because I was peeing behind a bush at the time. I’m too triggered to answer your questions about birthdays... I have problems peeing too...”

FannyCann · 29/10/2020 23:13

In between enjoying this thread, so many excellent suggestions, I made a very infuriating discovery at work (nhs).
The hospital recently introduced a sort of workplace messaging service, Facebook lite for individual organisations. I think it's called "workplace". It's very annoying, suddenly my email filled up with notifications and suggestions I join, endless inane chit chat.
Anyway I did join, mainly because I wanted to read a discussion about car parking as parking permits (now free thanks to coronavirus) are always a hot topic of contention. Coming back from a weeks holiday there were so many notifications on my email I couldn't find my actual emails that I needed to see. A colleague explained I could turn them off by going into the settings.
And guess what, there in my settings I find I have been assumed as having "neutral" pronouns!
I was so cross. Couldn't decide whether to change to female pronouns as thankfully the choices were limited to female, male or neutral but decided even making the change would dignify giving the option. Angry

Tomorrow I will delete but then I fear the unsolicited notifications will resume. Angry

I am being asked to go into a meeting and introduce my pronouns to everyone in an hour and a half!
I am being asked to go into a meeting and introduce my pronouns to everyone in an hour and a half!
WizWoz · 29/10/2020 23:13

My standard response is that I am a post gender individualist and I find the use of pronouns oppressive. I therefore request people to use my name at all times, eg. Wizwoz went to the canteen by Wizwoz-self.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 29/10/2020 22:51

I very much like 'whichever pronouns will get me a higher salary', and in the unlikely event of my very unwoke work place embracing this nonsense, that's what i'll go for

nepeta · 29/10/2020 22:46

I have tried to understand what becoming nonbinary would change in how others treat a person.

Suppose I declared myself nonbinary tomorrow (as I like to think of myself as a human being with varied interests and hobbies which often fail to neatly fall into the Barbie doll and GI Joe categories). Would I suddenly get a raise so that my earnings would be somewhere between male and female average for my occupation? Would suddenly nobody be interested in sexually harassing me? Would I be safer walking out alone at night?

I honestly mean that I don't understand which actual changes someone expects to happen. Maybe this is why the pronouns are so central in what I have read?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 29/10/2020 22:39

PS. Link to the horse phones, please, I want!

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 29/10/2020 22:38

The pronouns I wish to be addressed by are 'you' and 'yours'. Or if we happen to be in Yorkshire, 'Tha's' is acceptable. The way people refer to me in the third-person when I'm not present is up to them.

I came across a nice, polite pushback in my ruminations on this topic earlier: 'my pronouns are whatever yours are'. Watch the sheep-witted conformists scratch their heads while they try to work that one out ...

callistography · 29/10/2020 22:17

I'm so so glad this hasn't come up at my work yet as, being very honest, I'd just be irritated.

I refuse to engage with any of it and will not be told that I have to state what 'my pronouns are'. Seriously. Fuck right off.

Common sense really does need to prevail as it's all going a bit mad. I have no issue at all with people living however they wish, transitioning however they wish and therefore wanting to be referred to in a different way to how they had been previously.

But. And this is the big one for me. I personally feel that this shouldn't then impact on everyone else who would otherwise quite happily just carry on as they have done for all their lives being referred to as befits their biological gender.

ethelredonagoodday · 29/10/2020 22:11

Glad it passed without incident OP. It's just cringeworthy isn't it. Luckily for me, my organisation is very, very unwoke, so it'll hopefully be a while before i come up against this. But I do feel like it's just another level of self absorption from the people suggesting it. I find it bad enough saying who I am and what my role is, without all that other unnecessary stuff.

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/10/2020 21:55

Maybe we should all be stating where we stand on the Great Marmite Divide, just so we know.

Del
Pro marmite

ethelredonagoodday · 29/10/2020 21:53

@roarfeckingroarr

Read this to DP. His response: what total bollocks. Tell her to say her pronouns are "captain knobhead".
That cracked me up @roarfeckingroarr. My husband had someone mention pronouns for the first time in a meeting the other day. He said his eyes could not have rolled any more than they did.
MadameMeursault · 29/10/2020 21:50

@WhatTheFuckHappenedHere

Oh and the self care, this is more or less along the right lines. Yes we really were instructed with these things.

I mean really, everyone knows to have a wee and grab a brew before the meeting and in any breaks don't they?

I think they should have gone round the meeting and asked if everyone had a standing up wee or a sitting down wee!