SANDS sorry if upsetting

"I'm not going to get involved except to tell you xyz" is an odd way of "not getting involved" jj.

But from seeing you on other threads I suppose it was only a matter of time before you came here to tell off the bereaved mums and women too.

Sexnotgender
No worries. It's been taken down now. I am definitely not a monster.

💐 to all who have lost their babies.

The erasure of the word mother is just more bullying from the men who have jumped on the trans train. However, they come for mothers at their peril - Mumsnet has stood firm and now SANDS has apologised.

For the trans people out there that are watching despairingly from the sidelines, we will always support people who have no voice, are marginalised and ignored - after all we have been doing this since time immemorial , which is why we are good at it. Please distance yourselves from the bullies who want to erase us, and stand beside us, and we will stand beside you.

Melrose exactly. It is. The mother whose life would have changed most by the arrival of the baby. It ignores the physicality of being a mother before and after birth; the changes to your body, hyperemesis, pelvic girdle pain, gestational diabetes, weight gain, feeling the baby kicking (and monitoring this), the lack of sleep, back problems, the Caesarian scar, the birth injuries, Episiotomy, stitches, engorgement of breasts, contraction of the uterus, lochia, pelvic organ prolapse... all things that only happen to the mother. By ignoring this you are removing support - support that other mothers get at antenatal groups and mother and baby groups or from the health visitor. Who do you talk to about breasts still leaking milk weeks later? Who do you share your stories of baby-weight loss with? Who do your share notes with concerning you birth injuries to determine if you should worry?

Sexnotgender
ArabellaScott
merrymouse

Sorry for not making it clearer... it was a horrible quote from Twitter. Definitely not my words. I should have put it in quotation marks.

I see Freddy McConnell has weighed in.

Still salty about not being called father on the birth certificate I see.

They do however talk about bereaved families, often

My little brother was stillborn when I was 14. It was hugely sad for me - I had looked forward to his arrival - it was a big deal. It shook my family up.

But it was nothing to my mother's experience - all the coming to terms with a late baby and the big thing happening to her, the preparations; sorting hospital appointments and work, the (new then) scans, explaining to friends and neighbours, the maternity clothes. Feeling the baby move about and getting to know and bond with it.
Only to feel the baby moving strangely, and for that to stop, coming to terms with the death, the augmented labour in a room alone, the delivery where he was quietly taken away without her ever seeing him.

There was little we could do as a family to console her. Our experience was not hers. Our lives carried on. What she needed was connection from other women who had gone through this before her.

The bond between mother and baby is quite visceral and instinctive. It has been played down throughout history and by those who want to dissociate us from the rest of the animal kingdom as being 'higher beings' Some may feel it more than others, but it is the baby's route to survival.

My mother was one of the visceral ones. She spent many years unpicking what had happened to her. Groups like SANDS were unable to reach out to the extent they do today, but the information they gave to the press and the changes they encouraged in maternity services meant a lot to her.

One if the commenters says (in response to the Sands apology): "This is what TERFs do, they bully organisations and people into reverting back to gendered and binary language to actively erase and negate the existence and lived experiences of trans folk"

They then go on to say how Mumsnet is transphobic. When did wanting to keep the word "mother" become viewed as something hateful . I have been left-wing my whole life, inclusive, thought I was kind and sensitive, but I think that there is a nasty picture painted of "accept everything (including erasure of words that used to be associated with women)" or be a "bigot".

I only learnt the word "terf" a few weeks ago and apparently I have become one because I was also upset about that post!

Apparently Tommy’s has gone the same way with an apology for using ‘mothers and fathers’.

Yes, Tommy's, a charity devoted to "research into miscarriage, premature birth and stillbirth" is also jumping on the bandwagon.

This affects all women, as charities such as Tommy's fund research so their preferred language will seep into the gynaecology and maternity departments as well.
(We already know this is rife in breastfeeding groups, doulas, midwifery etc).

I will never support a charity for women and mothers who refuse to name them as such. Of course partners and wider family are affected by miscarriage and stillbirth but it is women who go through the physical processes and where much of the research and treatment will be focused.

I would also be seeing the responses as really valuable engagement and something to analyse and respond to. When you get hit by negative replies its still a huge sign that people care about what you're saying after all.

In response to the latest tweet, I think that they've said sorry "that" they upset people, not "if", which makes it feel more sincere to me.

But once again, this could have been constructed differently, and in a voice which suggested they were open to dialogue with their followers:

"We share our deepest love and sympathy with every person who's lost a child. The vast majority of our audience and donors are mums and parents. We hear how many of you felt hurt by our tweet today and we apologise. Please know that we tweeted with the best of intentions. We seek to include those who struggle with words like "mum" or "mother" but we will think about how we can word this better in future. Thank you for your support and feedback."

I used to run big social media channels in some previous jobs, and always tried to engage rather than just broadcast, because it worked better.

And the projection in that quote - calling women who have lost babies minding, when also losing the name of 'mother' scum, and abusive... well, they do say narcissists project. That would seem to be an absolutely classic example, and I can only hope that the individual capable of typing such words gets the help they need, and cause as little harm as possible to others, with such a gravely evident level of disorder.

I have been and had a look at the SANDS website.

I entered "mother" as a search term, and looked on as many pages as I could find.

The word "mother" was on none of them. "Mum", yes, as the anonymising signature to letters they have received. Mother, no. "Woman" once, when quoting the words of a "Mum"; "women" once, in a mission statement by one of the trustees. ("Sands’ commitment to strengthening UK perinatal research will directly lead to new discoveries and better care for women and their families.")

They do however talk about bereaved families, often.

SANDS is a wonderful charity. I hope this doesn’t detract from the incredible support and help they give to everyone - mothers, fathers, grandparents, siblings, everyone.

Ah, cross post.

Those are quotes from the kind and inclusive lot, I see. How compassionate they are.

Awning are those Twitter quotes?

Oops sorry awning10 - missed the colon! (And thanks knights )

It is about decoupling the name "mother" from the process of conception, birth and childrearing.

It changes the power relationship.

Barraker once did a great thread about it, but I can't find it atm.

It ended:

Barracker's Law:
"If you can describe it, but can't or mustn't name it, it is vulnerable.
If you can name it, but can't or mustn't describe it, it is powerful."

awning10, ‘mother’ does not exclude anyone.

People have different relationships with the word, but when you talk about ‘speaking as a motherrr’, you push everyone who uses that word into a box and create the world where people are excluded by a simple word that just describes a relationship that exists in all mammals.

I wouldn’t call you scum as I don’t know anything about you, but perhaps you could think a bit more deeply about how words include or exclude.

”I can’t see any mothers calling for the use of terms that deliberately exclude transgender people in this - it seems that ‘ mothers and other birth parents’ or similar would be accepted.”

Of course it would be. Perfectly fine. But that won’t be good enough. Only erasing female language completely will be good enough. And that’s what’s causing so many people to push back hard now. Because no concession is good enough. No kindness is enough. Only compete agreement is enough.

No. No more.