BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

Such fake naivety and ignorance! Information already posted in the thread, other posts of long standing across FWR... but no!

jj has no knowledge of them.

Tiresome!!!!

No pronouns are sex based. Even those of us who don't believe in gender use them.

Why do you always pretend to not know jj

It was in the news. The autistic teen arrested fir asking a pcso if they were a boy or a girl.

Susie greens ted talk is nothing nut born in the wrong body , a homphobic husband and stereotypes. Its right there on you tube so yes its what kids were being told

No one can even define trans. Its not born in the wrong body its not stereotypes amd its not a mental health condition.

What is it we are going to tell children whilst demanding they lie to preserve feelings?

*even though, actually, I believe she has said she respects individuals pronouns.

Acceptable words for people of different ethnicities and sexualities have changed considerably over the years and there are many terms that were used which would be regarded as offensive today. And the people who still use them complain of things like forced speech or not being able to state what they view as correctly identifying someone's ethnicity in the language they choose. But those people are arseholes, what's wrong with just being polite?

[quote jj1968]@OldCrone No offence, but I've given my views on this several times. I'm much more interested in discussing how society can manage trans inclusion and acceptance than I am in having endless debates that lead nowhere about whether trans women are women.[/quote]
I didn't say anything about whether transwomen are women (they're not, obviously). But we need to know what 'trans' is if we are supposed to include and accept trans people and decide on what terms we should 'include and accept' them.

Is Philip Bunce trans? What about Eddie Izzard? Alex Drummond?

And what does 'live in the female role' mean? Are all women supposed to 'live in the female role' if they don't identify as 'trans'? I'd like to know if I am 'living in the female role' and whether I am no longer considered by you to be a woman if I don't conform to whatever this is.

Non binary fir males seems to be an orange tu tu

Up here in Scotland I think you'll find that it's sparkly wellies that maketh the man non-binary, that's if our first ever nb councillor is to be believed...

It's the enforcement. See posts upthread about real life cases of people being pursued into court for not using correct pronouns. Typically autistic behaviour is not accepted as a defense, excuse, reason when transwomen are the aggrieved party!

Who has been pursued into court for not using correct pronouns?

I was not ‘born in the wrong body’. I’m fortunate in that I like my body and I don’t want to change it. For me, transitioning was about the social aspects: my name, my appearance, how I dressed, and most importantly, having other people understand me as the real me. It has never been about the medical side of things. However, to change my legal gender, I have to provide a doctor’s signature to confirm that I have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. But I don’t need any medical treatment, so why should I have to have a doctor’s appointment for what is a legal process?

This (male) person says that they have changed their name, apearance and clothing, but has not had medical treatment and doesn't want it, but wants to change their legally recognised sex. How is this different from a crossdresser?

Since being 'trans' is no longer about being 'born in the wrong body' (and according to the new narrative it never was), what is it now, other than stereotypes?

jj a good start would be, as so many women have said for so very long, would be not to dismiss what women say and insist that what you have to say is more important.

What you want to discuss is important. But can only happen once there is no obfuscation about who we are talking about. So the day all TRAs admit that sex is immutable we can start a proper discussion. Until then women will say no... and continue to point out all of those times that it made a difference and harmed a woman.

For me, it's the over dramatic language that's used. We need to call them such and such to make them feel 'safe'. I'm sorry, it comes across as pathetic.

And if I have to say ze/zir or whatever, it feels like I'm taking the piss, mocking a foreign accent or something. I'm not comfortable with it, it doesn't feel natural at all. So I have to be uncomfortable to make someone else comfortable.

Then there are the people who change pronouns. So do I then have a duty to look up what someone wants to be called from week to week, or day to day? Because being completely honest, I can't be arsed. It smacks of narcissism, and other people just don't interest me that much.

It's the enforcement. See posts upthread about real life cases of people being pursued into court for not using correct pronouns. Typically autistic behaviour is not accepted as a defense, excuse, reason when transwomen are the aggrieved party!

Think about what it means in a larger sense. Girls can no longer say but he is a boy... when a boy is in what is supposed to be her safe, single sex space. She cannot say that out loud as he is she, and those pronouns MUST be honoured.

So girls are no longer able to say no, are being taught that what they feel is secondary to what a boy might feel.

And what about the boys? Not a stereotypically roughy thought boy? My! You must be a girl then! How screwed up is that?

And feel free to reverse the sexes on all parts of that. It's equally screwed up whichever way it happens. Though oddly almost all of the memes, cartoons and attention seems to be on the males who want to transition.

Pronouns are the tip of the iceberg. They muddy the waters making it hard to say what you want to say without being offensive and automatically in the wrong.

Words are important. They create our social reality. Fuck around with them and you unstitch the mores that make society work!

How is using a sex based pronoun remotely the same as racist slur.

Perhaps stop constantly tying these demands to years of racism and sexism and homophobia suffered by people of colour , women and gay people for decades . Being correctly sexed is not offensive or abusive.

@OldCrone No offence, but I've given my views on this several times. I'm much more interested in discussing how society can manage trans inclusion and acceptance than I am in having endless debates that lead nowhere about whether trans women are women.

Because pronouns are what you use when someones not even there

This isn't true, you might indicate that's hers/his to a waiter for example when food is served.

Do you think one person should he given the power to control the conversation even when not around

Do you think it's acceptable to use racist slurs, or derogatory terms based on someone's sexuality as long as they aren't present?

nitsandworms - can you give me an example of how you would do this please? Are you talking about when the person is present or not present?

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

It doesn't work that way though does it

You cant pretend you acknowledge they are not what you see with a pronoun then have to enforce the boundary a few mins later getting changed for pe.

Lying can be extremely distressing for some. The stress of slipping up would make some kids really anxious.

Ok I'm gonna sound like a wholly hippy now but can't we try to call people what ever makes them happy , be kind and understanding if we slip up or have difficulty saying correct pronoun
Safe spaces for women / safeguarding is a different level altogether and obviously we need to protect that. But I can't see any harm in trying to call someone by the name and pronouns they prefer

Because pronouns are what you use when someones not even there .

Do you think one person should he given the power to control the conversation even when not around ?

What if your kid gets into rouble for forgetting or gets distressed because X is a girl and your son is distressed because he can see its not true that he has to call them he?

What if your kid was autistic and cannot lie ?

Sorry i don't see the problem with using a pronoun that makes the other person happy ? How is this a problem? I can explain this to my child easily
I'm obviously missing something?

Kids trust their parents. Kids trust their teachers and their sports coaches etc

If God forbid they were to find out the hard way that one or all have not been entirely accurate then I really fear for the vulnerable position that leads them in and who they then turn to whilst cut off from theor family and other trusted adults.

How far do you take be kind?

I dont think gaslighting children enables us to keep them safe. Its not the harmless inclusive gesture it makes out.

Yes, it's gaslighting - and compelled speech.