BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

He didn't go up to him and ask politely did he? I've had people shout crap like that at me in the street before. It's not very nice as it's intended to draw attention to someone and humiliate them. It's bullying basically. I doubt I'd have much luck getting a prosecution but then I'm not a copper. But if you think this was just some poor confused autistic child politely asking an innocent question then I suggest you are somewhat naive. That's certainly not what the courts found as the verdict means intent to cause alarm, harassment or distress.

The teenager didn’t argue that he did not intend to cause harm - he argued he didn’t say it at all. So the courts only found that he did.

As for how he asked the question (if he did at all): autism is a social communication disorder. It is perfectly possible for him to have innocently asked a question that appeared very blunt and rude. Indeed for him to have intended to cause harm would have required theory of mind - to understand the other person’s perspective - and that is a skill many autistic people lack.

In fact it is somewhat offensive to suggest that a diagnosis of autism automatically means that people are likely to behave in an anti-social way or have no control over their behaviour.

It would absolutely be, if I had said that.

This debate is full of examples of neurodiverse people finding these multitudinous yet simple ()pronouns absolutely unmanageable. Rather than a 'I said you said' about this case why don't you respond to those concerns? How can you reassure neurodiverse people and those with neurodiverse children that they can communicate effectively - and safely - in this Brave New World of exciting pronouns?

I'd say lying to kids about their sexed bodies and demolishing their boundries qualifies...

Gaslighting is a firm of abuse too

But also if something is true it's just true

Ah but truth and reality are just constructs...

4/5 years? No, I’ve been actively engaged in feminism for about thirty years.

oldcrone

I don't think you read my post properly. 8 billion people. It's incredibly parochial to end a response to that with 'the Government...'

But also if something is true it's just true. So it wouldn't really matter whether people believed it. If you wanted to make a puppy and you had a dog you'd still need a female dog. I get that life can be a bitch but let's not pretend we can alter reality to suit our desires.

What is it about womanhood that you identify with jj? You don't seem to like women very much.

If that's the best you can do with the wind in your sails then victory seems far from assured I'm afraid.

You make this sound like a war. Why can't you just be kind?

That's such insane hubris it actually makes me feel sad for you. There are 8 billion people on this planet. Every single one of them knows what a woman is. That you have convinced a tiny fraction of maybe as much as a tenth of a percent of those people to deny what they know to be true is really not a battle won.

You've been going at this what 4/5 years now? During that time we've had one of the most right wing Tory cabinets in living memory, Trump in the Whitehouse, Putin in the Kremlin, almost the entire national media on your side from Murdoch to the Morning Star, you've got billionaires, barristers and baronesses, admittedly mostly washed up celebrities galore, factions in all the main political parties, everyone from Evangelicals to militant trade unionists, a solid flow of cash and what's been achieved? The government recently announced they are making it easier to change your legal sex. If that's the best you can do with the wind in your sails then victory seems far from assured I'm afraid.

That was to this - But it's certainly not implausible, or even unlikely that this person intended to humiliate or ridicule him.

Except that this person has a diagnosis of autism. Do you actually have any empathy? Under the 'be kind' mantra?

Gender is a system of socially imposed behaviours based on physical or perceived sex.

Gender identity is where we feel most comfortable within that system regardless of physical sex and may also indicate how we internally experience our sexed bodies within a gendered system.

I don't feel comfortable within that system because that system is inimical to my health and wellbeing and that of all women. So that system can do one.

Believing that why would I be expected to identify my place in it? You've just confirmed what we are saying. Gender is the patriarchy. Fuck the patriarchy and fuck gender.

Gender is a system of socially imposed behaviours based on physical or perceived sex.

I think we can almost agree on this. I'd say it's socially expected behaviours rather than imposed though, since we are under no obligation to comply with them.

Gender identity is where we feel most comfortable within that system regardless of physical sex and may also indicate how we internally experience our sexed bodies within a gendered system.

Now this is where we disagree. I just behave as I wish, according to my own personal preferences. I am aware that some of these behaviours comply with what is expected of women, but many of them don't. I don't view this as a 'gender identity', but simply a personality. To describe these behaviours in terms of a 'gender identity' appears to me to be reinforcing sexism and the idea that certain behaviours are only acceptable for one or other sex. In other words, 'gender identity' seems to be reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I'm not going to comment on 'how we internally experience our sexed bodies within a gendered system' because I don't understand what you mean.

Gender presentation is the social codes we adopt, both consciously and unconsciously, which indicate our gender identity.

Again, describing the way I dress or other aspects of my appearance in terms of 'gender' is reinforcing the notion that certain presentations are only acceptable for one sex or the other. A progressive society would accept that people don't always dress in accordance with outdated stereotypes. And obviously, what I wear or other aspects of my appearance can't be construed as indicating my 'gender identity', since I don't have one.

Personally I say abolish it all. But until that is achived it seems most humane to allow people to live accordance with their gender identity. Probably being humane is a bit too close to being kind for some of you lot. But that's what I think we should do.

I think it would be more humane and kind to say to everyone 'dress how you want, live how you want (as long as you are not harming others), but you can't change sex'.

Okay. For the posters who believe that the word 'woman' has more than one meaning.

I understand 'woman' to mean 'adult human female'.

What do you understand the word 'woman' to mean?

Surely you must know that?

Courts absolutely never make mistakes.

I still don't know whether my gender identity 'matches' my sex. I don't know how my gender identity would 'match' my sex if I had a gender identity other than 'man' or 'woman'.

I don't know what non-binary means or how one goes about being binary. Once upon a time a woman being a doctor or a lawyer would have been considered 'unwomanly'. Does that mean female doctors and lawyers have a gender other than 'woman'? Are they non-binary?

I have so many questions and I receive so few answers.

Given the whole process is under review, the BBC have featured a dr giving mis information like puberty blockers being harmless and reversible, and signposted to a charity that referred to the services of a dr who was suspended for running an.illegal clinic theres no way we are the inhumane ones...

Probably being humane is a bit too close to being kind for some of you lot

Charming.

I’m all for inclusion, Austriana, but I have reservations about the fervour with which pronouns are mandated.

I’ve posted above about how I’m not convinced that it’s a kindness to encourage possibly vulnerable people to think that people who mis gender them hate them and want them to die. Far kinder to say “look, people mostly won’t be dicks to you, but in the grand scheme of things, if they are, then you can just ignore them, and you’ll be fine. You can’t control their thoughts”.

It’s also not inclusive to people with English as a second language (my second language attaches pronouns to objects rather than subjects and it can be tormenting, and Arabic, for example, genders everything depending on the sex of the person you’re talking to ) people with those languages speaking English are going to struggle already with pronouns. It’s also very much not inclusive to neuro diverse people, like the lad with autism referred to upthread.

It’s not really a zero sum game of kindness.