BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

Quite a few of jj's list of hypothetical 'sex or gender' questions quite likely have a variety of answers of 'something else'.

Who knows? And he would be bisexual unless the trans person passed better than 99% of MTF trans people and he was genuinely unaware of their sex.

Actually I've rethought that. It's irrelevant what sexuality the man has as those things (sexual harassment and assault) are arguably more about power. Men sometimes rape other men because they have power over them. So a male committing sexual assault on another male doesn't necessarily tell us anything about sexuality and not sure why you mentioned it. If it was consensual and the "straight" man and MTF trans person knowingly slept together it would. It would mean that the man is bisexual.

I think we have the (mainly non trans) transactivists to thank for the way things are now. They could have been campaigning for society to be more accepting of feminine men and masculine women, but instead they decided to try to force us all to believe that people can change sex. If trans people had decided to work with feminists to break down the concept of gender instead of trying to coerce women to accept male people as women, I think we could be in a much better place now.

It doesn't dismantle the culturally created concept of gender if someone violates the gender roles built for his or her sex but then immediately amends that violation by stating that they belong to the other sex instead. Even identifying as non-binary does nothing for the existence of gender roles and stereotypes, because it still argues that all the other people are binary walking gender stereotypes.

It is the gender classes themselves that need to be dismantled so that how one dresses etc. is not assumed to reflect a particular biological sex or its name (women, men).

The only way in which the gender ideology is not swiftly rowing backwards in terms of sexism is that it allows someone to jump from one rigid gender box to another box, but doing so is far too often combined by performing a retrogressive interpretation of what it means to be that other gender.

If a straight man sexually harasses or assaults a trans woman is it on the basis of her sex or gender?

Who knows? And he would be bisexual unless the trans person passed better than 99% of MTF trans people and he was genuinely unaware of their sex.

When people pointed out that referring to 'people with cervixes' meant that many women wouldn't know it referred to them the Twatterati all started going 'Ah, well, that just means we should have better education in schools' but they didn't mean it, they didn't give a shit about it, weren't ever going to think of it again, it's just 'ooh! Look! A squirrel!'.

No TRA has any interest in dismantling ideas about gender. Gender is where they live. It's all just casting around to deflect.

Anyway night.

Many young people I come across are more sexist and stereotype-obsessed than people my own age (late gen X). So not sure how this amazing paradigm shift is going to occur.

But even where it doesn't, like with the example of Mädchen for girl mentioned above by OldCrone which has as a Genus Neutrum (neuter) even though the Sexus of a girl is female, where the referrent (the actual girl) is known, named or visible, it is actually much more common to use the ungrammatical she and all declined forms thereof even though das Mädchen requires es.

Because personal pronouns are based on sex in German, they can override the rules in common usage.

Thanks for that explanation Charlie. And the rest of that fascinating post.

Great post, OldCrone

represent a serious challenge to gender as a binary system of domination

How? It's all navel gazing luxury beliefs, from where I'm standing. Meanwhile, in the world everyone knows which of the two "genders" (sexes) should put up and shut up and do what they're told.

I think the opening up of gender, the playing around with it, the 100 different genders and the experiments with fluidity which are happening amongst particularly younger generations really represent a serious challenge to gender as a binary system of domination.

If you want to get rid of gender, the way to do that is to get rid of gender, surely, not make up 100s of new 'genders'. What are they anyway? Personality types?

And gender is only 'binary' because the concept of gender is attached to sex. Of which there are two.

We don't actually know what causes discordant gender identity

Gender identity just seems to be another way of saying 'personality'. What do you mean by discordant? If you mean a woman who has aspects to her personality which are considered stereotypically masculine, this shouldn't be considered to be abnormal.

It may be that trans people would still experience discomfort with their sexed bodies even in a post gender world.

'Born in the wrong body'? You were arguing earlier that transgenderism was nothing to do with sexed bodies or people's discomfort with them, and it was all about personalities and stereotypes.

Which leads to the second aspect, which is that it seems unnecessarily harsh to expect trans women and trans men to be the trailblazers in this when they suffer as much as anyone from a rigidly gendered system in which gender is imposed on the basis of assigned sex. I know everyone thinks it's a wonderful life but it's actually not very easy being trans in this society, I don't know anyone who chose it, and under the current system then allowing people to adopt a sex role counter to the one assigned at birth seems to me the most humane way to allow people to live with some comfort and dignity.

I think we have the (mainly non trans) transactivists to thank for the way things are now. They could have been campaigning for society to be more accepting of feminine men and masculine women, but instead they decided to try to force us all to believe that people can change sex. If trans people had decided to work with feminists to break down the concept of gender instead of trying to coerce women to accept male people as women, I think we could be in a much better place now.

Thanks Siam. So it's bollocks anyway (pun!) Good to know.

And being arrested in the street for being topless would be an example of a unlikely hypothetical situation these male people could share with women. It doesn't actually make them women.

A topless man with breast implants wouldn't be arrested in E&W. Nor would a topless woman.
Exposure under the SOA requires genitals to be exposed and breasts are not genitals
It’s social convention that keeps the female breast (and presumably its imitators) covered

Is it though? Really ?

Does knowing everyone's just pretending, just saying what you want to hear regardless of what they realky think, realky provide comfort?

Don't you see what you are asking of people?.you are making other people solely responsible for how you feel. Without asking . Without a thought to what it may cost them.

I'm sorry for anyone who's having a shit time. Truly. But the responsibility for getting thru it relies on close friends and family perhaps and themselves. Not strangers.

And this incessant requests to "be kind" do you know, what that actually entails? If your lucky it just costs you time and money. If you aren't so lucky it put you in dangerous situations and causes much distress and for what? Only one thing is for sure, however mind you are. Its never enough. People ( after all its human nature ) always want more.

How on one hand can it be no big deal whilst simultaneously having the power to crush people?

And isnt it meaningless if people don't really mean it?

Because if its what you wanted its not abkut kindness because its coerced , it can only be about power.

The topless trans woman who gets arrested, is she being arrested on the basis of her sex or her gender? Sorry to repeat this but no-one answered and I'd say it's a pretty clear example of how this is much messier out in the real world then it might appear in theoretical discussion, and trans people have to find a way to somehow navigate that complexity.

It depends, doesn't it? Plenty of MTF trans people look exactly like men, and I imagine would be treated exactly like men if no one realised they were trans. So if they had breast development, that would be borne out in the way the justice system unceasingly panders to this ideology. Why should women be arrested for going topless in the street if men can, by your logic? It's about breasts rather than chests.

I know you think it's a gotcha, but it isn't.

I was told this week - no idea if it is right - that in Mandarin, pronouns are the same for he, she, they. It must be awful if your language doesn't validate you!

Finnish doesn't make a distinction, either. I wonder what Finnish non-binary people do for validation.

I was told this week - no idea if it is right - that in Mandarin, pronouns are the same for he, she, they. It must be awful if your language doesn't validate you!

@testing987654321

You suggested we guess people's gender without stating what criteria we should use to guess, because it obviously isn't sex. And you can't even give a basic explanation of how someone chooses their own gender.

The topless trans woman who gets arrested, is she being arrested on the basis of her sex or her gender? Sorry to repeat this but no-one answered and I'd say it's a pretty clear example of how this is much messier out in the real world then it might appear in theoretical discussion, and trans people have to find a way to somehow navigate that complexity.

You're getting so close to understanding why the concept of gender is so toxic. But now can you see how the idea of transgenderism reinforces these stereotypes and is making people conform more?

I think that assumes a very narrow view of transgender people, which is itself based in stereotypes. I think the opening up of gender, the playing around with it, the 100 different genders and the experiments with fluidity which are happening amongst particularly younger generations really represent a serious challenge to gender as a binary system of domination. It's not perfect, not at all, as I said, I don't think patriarchy is about to crumble, but it's an opportunity surely.

Every time a man decides that his gender non-conformity makes him a transwoman, rather than a gender non-conforming man, he reinforces the idea that certain presentations and behaviours are only for women and not for men. Breaking this down requires him to say that the way he likes to dress and behave doesn't make him any less of a man.

I think there's two aspects to this. We don't actually know what causes discordant gender identity, whether it is social or biological or a mix of both. It may be that trans people would still experience discomfort with their sexed bodies even in a post gender world.

Which leads to the second aspect, which is that it seems unnecessarily harsh to expect trans women and trans men to be the trailblazers in this when they suffer as much as anyone from a rigidly gendered system in which gender is imposed on the basis of assigned sex. I know everyone thinks it's a wonderful life but it's actually not very easy being trans in this society, I don't know anyone who chose it, and under the current system then allowing people to adopt a sex role counter to the one assigned at birth seems to me the most humane way to allow people to live with some comfort and dignity.

Hear hear OldCrone.

Not because they like it perhaps, but because of fear of social consequence if they don't which becomes ingrained into a set of behaviours from very early childhood. Men do the same, and plenty of men are uncomfortable with spects of masculinity despite the dominant role. Patriarchy hurts both women and men, although not of course equally.

The thing is gender doesn't need to mean everyone is a walking stereotype for it to function. Gender needs people to conform just enough to maintain the system of gender, it doesn't have to be optimal. And people clearly do conform to the level necessary, otherwise gender as a system of social control wouldn't exist. Now why people conform, whether comfort, fear of punishment, social conditioning or maintenance of a dominant role in the case of men, is probably one area that needs examining.

You're getting so close to understanding why the concept of gender is so toxic. But now can you see how the idea of transgenderism reinforces these stereotypes and is making people conform more?

Every time a man decides that his gender non-conformity makes him a transwoman, rather than a gender non-conforming man, he reinforces the idea that certain presentations and behaviours are only for women and not for men. Breaking this down requires him to say that the way he likes to dress and behave doesn't make him any less of a man.

Breaking down gender means making all possibilities open to both men and women.

I said I thought it was a petty prosecution

I did see that jj, my post was more thinking out loud about it than aiming it at you.