BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

I'm talking about a trans women facing violence tonight, in the here and now. What she should so, start a campaign?

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only, although what plans they have to police that is somewhat baffling to me. Most refuges are not one big shared communal house anymore anyway. But the women working in the refuge sector have told you, over and over again, that trans inclusion is not a problem for the sector, funding cuts however are.

And what do you expect trans people to do? I expect them to stop and consider the realities of life. Not one of the horrible things you describe have not happened to women, caused by men. Look to men to stop that behaviour. Include all transwomen... they too should stop pushing themselves into female spaces where they undoubtedly cause issues by mere dint of their male bodied presence.

And before you remonstrate, men can decide how they want to address transmen. That is not for women to decide. And yes, I do know a transman, have done for almost 30 years, through all of his surgeries. He married my ex boss last year. He has had a GRC for a very long time. I call him He as that is how he lives, presents and has a legal bit of paper saying that he is, for legal purposes, male. But he knows he is genetically female. He makes no bones about that! Never has. And yes, I have posted about him before, in case you think I am making it up!

He uses male facilities. Men choose not to make an issue over it. We have discussed this, in light of the recent TRA actions (which horrify him). He can see the backlash and having to rethink how he lives his public life. He can't use female facilities, he looks far too male for that. But if men chose to say no, as women are now doing, he would make adjustments - discussing separate unisex loos at work for example (civil service, this could be done quite easily). But he wouldn't insist he is male if just one man found that too challenging. Indeed the current TRA actions have made him extremely uncomfortable using male facilities and he may have that discussion once the offices are open again.

He know he is ananomaly. He doesn't like it, it reminds him he isn't universally accepted as he presents But ALL of that was his choice!

It is pure male privilege that we are expected to put male feelings ahead of our own. No one, including many women, even questions it.

Any humiliation that a transwoman feels using Male facilities is relevant, but the humiliation women face being forced to share spaces with male bodied people is not relevant?

See the equivalence of everything you write .

If transwomen are not comfortable with males and male spaces, neither are women

Transwomen are males, not females

It's pure Male priveledge if the transwomen is prioritised over women

None of this is to do with women. Stop thinking it is. Campaign for your own stuff, trailblaze for you own cause, just like everyone else.

None of this is women's remit. Stop imagining it is. This isn't anything to do with women, it's not for us to sort out, it's not for us to validate.

I was sexually harassed several times, flashed at and even followed home after using men's toilets

Which is exactly why women are entitled to spaces free from men - even when those men identify as women. There is no way for a woman to tell if the man in the toilets is dangerous or not, hence why all men are excluded.

Transpeople need to campaign for trans specific spaces as women and disabled people had to.

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14

A lot of men get the shit kicked out of them (and worse) by other men for a lot of reasons. Unfortunately that is a problem that women cannot solve.

If it simply comes down to a balancing of risks then I'd argue that supports trans inclusion.

It doesn't simply come down to a balancing of risks. It's also about the privacy and dignity of women, and respect for us.

Jj, all those things that you list transwomen having issues with are to do with male violence.

You are talking about men being violent to men.

Why are you berating women for this? I am here to talk to women about women's issues. You are here to derail every discussion you get involved in.

Why don't you take your arguments to the men?

But as we have seen, the chance of a woman being assaulted by a trans woman, or a man pretending to be a trans women, in women's spaces is millions to one. I was sexually harassed several times, flashed at and even followed home after using men's toilets just as an androgynous femme presenting teenager. If it simply comes down to a balancing of risks then I'd argue that supports trans inclusion.

I'd rather campaign for safe and secure facilities for everyone. We're so used to the politics of scarcity that we forget almost all of the problems could be solved with adequate funding. I would love to see trans people and GC people come together and fight for that.

You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point?

No, trans people should either advocate for trans support systems or use the ones for their biological sex.

Women's refuges are for women, who research has consistently found value female only space to recover from abuse and sexual violence. There are hard cases where older male children aren't allowed. That is difficult. This does not mean they should not be single sex.

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

Campaign for additional safe unisex spaces, instead of campaigning for self ID which means that the ‘lairy blokes’ you describe can enter any space.

Stop attacking people who simply want to protect the rights they need because they have a completely different protected characteristic.

I'm sorry, do you live in a parallel universe?

And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

How uncomfortable do you think the women Karen White sexually assaulted in prison felt?

Is it
a. slightly or
b.really very or
c.these arguments only work if you entirely forget the violence women face from men, all men, and totally centre men in your thinking. We do neither on FWR so these arguments don't work here. Feel free to campaign for third spaces.

And the question I would ask was is if I'm so gender conforming then why did this happen? Why do trans people face violence harassment and abuse? Why do trans people lose friendss and family when they come out? Why are trans people discriminated against in employment and housing? Why are trans people imprisoned or murdered, sometimes by the state in some countries, when all trans people are doing is reinforcing the gender binary?

And what do you expect trans people to do? You think a trans women should stay with a violent partner rather than escape to a refuge to make a political point? You think trans women should risk violence marching into a pub toilets full of lairy drunk blokes? Or risk sexual violence walking into a quiet men's toilets in an empty bus station at 1am? Trans people didn't create this society that hates us so much. But you want us to literally risk our lives in case a non trans woman feels slightly uncomfortable being in a changing room cubicle next to us?

And as it happens I've explained my gender. My presentation is androgynous and somewhat changeable. I usually use male spaces. Most people use male pronouns for me. I don't really care but my experience is very different to that of a trans woman who lives that way all the time and who may have had medical procedures that mean in a lot of cases using male spaces is not just dangerous but massively impractical and potentially humiliating.

As a fellow Gen Xer, in the 80s Benny Hill chasing women round in their underwear was prime time entertainment.

Except that Gen Xers were actually watching French & Saunders and Saturday Live.

Of course it wasn't perfect, but we at least thought things were getting better. We didn't think they would regress.

'Girl power' was a promotional slogan for the Spice Girls that had very little meaning.

I think there might be a difference between recognising shifting priorities and analysis over time and going on about how all young feminists today are woke idiots or all boomer feminists are out of touch bigots.

It's forced teaming and it's really obvious and a sad attempt at making your arguments seem progressive.

I think there's a lot of generational bashing going on in this debate, in both directions, that doesn't really help anyone.

Things did progress throughout the 90s I think, but it was still the era of lad's mags and girl power. The rave and other music scenes were almost entirely dominated by men, female rappers and DJs were novelties, and in the midst of the decadence of the time sexual abuse and harrassment was routinely normalised or covered up. There were far fewer female MPs than today, very few women working in STEM industries and the pay gap was much higher and barely discussed.

I'm not necessarily saying things have got better, but I think the way gender manifests has changed, and seems much more rooted in consumer choices and appearances rather than structural barriers, perhaps reflecting the legacy of girl power. I think the rise of ubiquitous porn and the internet has brought new forms of misogyny into play, or perhaps more correctly excerbated existing forms, and in some ways gendered consumer experieces have become virtual parodies, I'm thinking of all the ridiculously over the top girly nail bars that are sprnging up and butch male barbers with replica guns and motobikes in the windows. But I don't think you can really say things have got worse, just that the nature of the oppression has changed.

There are also plenty of examples of trailblazers in other groups of people with protected characteristics.

Was watching ‘hidden figures’ last night about ferociously intelligent black women who contributed to space flight. Each one of them had to be a trailblazer.

jj I can actually take on board your point about not expecting transpeople to be trailblazers.

I disagree. Just to take one example, it really isn't easy to be a woman and be the first person in your office to say that you need somewhere to express and store milk at work, but if you want to work and breastfeed your child you just have to get on and do it. There are hundreds of examples of things that women have had to do to fight for their rights that are at best awkward and at worst humiliating or dangerous.

There are also plenty of examples of trailblazers in other groups of people with protected characteristics.