BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

And guilted about being transphobes for not wanting penetrative sex with a lady dick -- I sometimes wonder whether that's a description of the body part or its owner, but it's their phrase, not mine.

To be clear 'What about lesbians?' is a common 'argument' presented when women talk about the need for women only provision and reference the statistics about male violence towards women. It's part of the 'script', like 'Being trans is just like being gay' and all the follow on ideas that not affirming pronouns is conversion therapy etc. You'll see it called TRA bingo, too. 'Attacking trans rights means losing abortion rights' is another line from the script.

My comment was simply that I had also noticed these arguments look superficially about concern for women's rights, but what they are doing is taking something and using it as decoration to disguise that they don't care about any of the rights in question.

Obviously, the 'connection' between predatory men and lesbians is only that lesbians, like any woman, can be assaulted by a predatory man.

Butterer
I guess that trans women can be attracted to women and self describe as lesbians too? I can say I wouldn't be happy sharing space with someone in that context...

They can, and do. Lesbians I know aren't too happy about sharing their space with them, in that context.

Its not up to women to fix the world for trans people. We're not obliged to set ourselves on fire to keep you warm. Fuck that for a game of sodjers.

No, nor would I. It's the self ID that breaches boundaries and compromises women's safety. Sadly, I don't feel as welcoming to transwomen in single sex spaces as I used to because of the very different nature of many transwomen now and who comes in with or after them through the door we're not so confident of being able to close now.

Erm, lesbians are us, right? All sisters, regardless of sexual preferences, having each others backs. What woman ever wanted to exclude lesbian women from single sex spaces? I never heard of such a thing.

Heck, most of us have been quietly welcoming obvious transwomen for decades, as long as they didn't misbehave (aka behave like men) around us while we're vulnerable. It's only the strident insistence that the doors to single sex women's spaces must be permanently wedged open to welcome all and any men, regardless of their gender feelz, who happen to fancy wandering in and doing whatever they felt like that rang alarm bells for most of us.

I suspect JJ could be extrapolating from personal knowledge of homophobia among men? I can't imagine where else this could come from. Women don't work like that, but I guess JJ hasn't spent enough time around women yet to have realised it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Quite a few Tory voters last time round seem to have been from pretty impoverished backgrounds. Should we damn them for it? (I did some work for the Labour Party in this constituency and it made me want to weep: the people planning to vote Tory seemed to think Johnson and his cronies were on their side, God alone knows why.)

eachother.org.uk/woman-trans-past-define-who-i-am/

And here's wealthy conservative women's group leader who since retiring under 60 has this to say:

Is there anything you would like to achieve which you haven’t yet?
Yes. Outside of professional stuff, I set myself three ambitions in life: one is to learn to fly, another is to ride a horse and the third is to play the piano.

I now have a private pilot’s license and I ride my horses.

But I haven’t learned properly to play the piano yet. That’s what I need to do.

The sweeping generalisations on this thread don't stand up to much scrutiny.

It was working in tandem with the actual fact of the statistical threat to women from men, to create a fictional threat to women from lesbians, and the entire purpose was to underline to women how little they mattered at all, and undermine and remove any and all of their boundaries.

It's a phenomenon I keep seeing - bring something up and because women care about the issue, they will not notice that you don't, and are just chain yanking to tire them out.

The bit I don't get about the Poland comments is that it sounds like a gotcha. If we don't stop whinging about what a woman is we'll see our abortion rights taken. Ha, women, that'll show you!

I don't get it either. Not saying anything and allowing ourselves to be silenced and dehumanised, and allowing men to speak on our behalf will lead to what's happening in Poland and much worse, surely.

The bit I don't get about the Poland comments is that it sounds like a gotcha. If we don't stop whinging about what a woman is we'll see our abortion rights taken. Ha, women, that'll show you!

Yes, exactly. Not the first time I've heard this logic. I've been told that I shouldn't expect to be able to vote if I don't support "trans rights".

And yet JJ is squarely on wealthy Tory MP Maria Miller's side in believing us to all be "purported feminists"

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2019/01/maria-miller-called-me-fake-feminist-over-gender-self-id-now-she-says-i

that wasn't aimed at you btw Butterer - good luck with your move - I hope it goes really well.

It's a Tory council. I spent about ten minutes on the local pages the other day, and there's shed loads of community focused and supporting stuff. A new community space is starting up, and hoping to open a payf cafe. Loads of independent local businesses are offering free meals to kids and families that need them. I'd got a bit anxious because of my lazy assumption that a majority Tory voting town would be full of selfish bastards. If I manage to move there I'd still not be able to vote tory in any good conscience though (and never have).

I find it interesting that there is such an accepted characterisation of 'tories' as being selfish and cruel and focussed on lining their pockets. My husband and I actually vote against our own personal financial interests because we believe that the small c conservative approach works for most people (nothing is ever going to work for everyone). A family member's partner was a tory minister and is such an amazing dedicated, kind person who does not accept the pay rises (that ministers have no say over) and works unbelievably hard. The dehumanising (and subsequent abuse) of whole groups of people is not ok. The only people that have called me unspeakable names on social media and shouted at me in my own home etc were not tories - they were the supposedly 'kind' people.

Empowering and supporting people to move forward in their lives, imo is a good thing. Big nanny state, controlling people's speech and thought and being too quick to legislate for things imo is not a good thing.

Anyway, apologies for the derail but I do find it disheartening when people label and dehumanise groups (any groups). I guess women, bosses and tories are not the favourite of an energetic poster on this thread.

The bit I don't get about the Poland comments is that it sounds like a gotcha. If we don't stop whinging about what a woman is we'll see our abortion rights taken. Ha, women, that'll show you!

That's not the tone women use when warning women about dangerous situations in other countries. When people started saying "look what's happening in Canada" it had a feel of solidarity. "That could happen here if we don't wake up and fight."

One of the many reasons to listen to Datun, Eresh and all the other fabulous women on here.

From Rozwatching

See eg the Deptford People's Project
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women?pg=55^^
(Thanks to PencilsInSpace who reproduced the statement)^

"Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x"

And fuck the people at the top of those organisatiosn. That's why I said workers and residents, not managers.

Women are the residents. For goodness sake. Women on these boards. One has literally just told you.

Or do you think that being raped, assaulted, controlled is confined to a certain 'type' of woman? Seriously. Go and take a look at the relationship board on here.

Your fellow transactivists are busy campaigning to get rape refuges defunded. Talk to them, instead of trying to get the women on here to do what you tell them.

I think a lot of Tories have their heart in the right place, it's often a difference of opinion as to how best to help

I think often they don't have the direct experience of poverty and lack of hope and opportunity which blinkers their approaches...

Here's a quote from Lucy in the Guardian

"Community organiser Lucy McDonagh, who attended the event, said she had been labelled a bigot for asking questions about proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. “Literally just asking a question if these changes could potentially affect women’s safe spaces is deemed as being transphobic. So lots of women, especially working class women, are scared to ask,” she said. “We have had to access this particular space because no one else has allowed us to speak about it. We are trying to find out about law, and we are trying to find out why women have been cut out of the conversation that statistically most affects them.”"

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/17/legal-challenge-to-labour-over-shortlists-and-transwomen?fbclid=IwAR1m7egr8itpFDCuAS76zQv8HAPCr29CnViEVEOQ5GOGyrknCgajNUN5kPA

And I note how zealously people keep telling women to stop trying to hang on to our provision, and our identities, because we should be working instead for a better world for all.

Here's a suggestion: every single trans person and trans org who is working to remove women's rights, for male validation, should stop doing that and instead: How about safe and humane prisons for everyone and more important putting less working class women in prison especially for non violent offences? In fact how about a completely new system that is less about punishing the poorest and only to protect us from truly dangerous people? How about a society with adequate social security so people aren't driven into mental ill health, poverty, and the associated risks of addiction and crime? How about safe accessible toilet provision that caters to everyone, including lone parents or those who have carer needs? How about increased funding for women's healthcare services and trans healthcare? How about no need for homeless hostels at all whether single sex or not because there are no homeless people? How about worrying about and fighting for the things our class desperately needs to live freely without need and with dignity for all without getting drawn into endless unwinnable arguments about pronouns and what words mean whilst middle class Tories pull our fucking strings.

Great. So why are you here, lecturing and hectoring women on our rights? Off you go, chop chop! Save the world for everyone, if it's so idiotic and selfish to focus on your own best interests trans rights will have no further interest for you. Will they?