BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

So refuges set up exclusively by women who saw the need and took action, for other women, fundraising by women, organisation by women, created out of the blood and swear and tears of women, are to be graciously permitted (by JJ) to admit some women in crisis.

But only after all the worried transwomen have been made comfy and safe. Riiiiiiight.

Nice of you to be so generous with a facility that isn't yours, that you haven't lifted a finger to support and probably don't intend to.

"Oy, women over there! That facility you've brought into existence out of nothing by your own efforts. We'll have that. Hand it over! We can't be bothered to do all that work - it's easier just to take yours."

jj1968:
You've been going at this what 4/5 years now? During that time we've had one of the most right wing Tory cabinets in living memory, Trump in the Whitehouse, Putin in the Kremlin, almost the entire national media on your side from Murdoch to the Morning Star, you've got billionaires, barristers and baronesses, admittedly mostly washed up celebrities galore, factions in all the main political parties, everyone from Evangelicals to militant trade unionists, a solid flow of cash and what's been achieved? The government recently announced they are making it easier to change your legal sex. If that's the best you can do with the wind in your sails then victory seems far from assured I'm afraid.

Also jj1968:
And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

You seem a little confused jj. Or are there two of you?

And please stop with the rebranding of 'womyn' as 'women'. That was tried and found wanting. Language exists for accurate communication. 'Women' and 'transwomen' are the standard terms generally understood on this board.

.... tries hard not to hold breath ...

And perhaps most pertinently of all, why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people, and not just trans women, but trans men, non binary people, pronoun usage, all of it? You may not think trans people threaten the Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy itself clearly disagrees.

I'd also like to unpack this comment which I was so incredulous at that I only managed a flippant response earlier. The Patriarchy is the government, the police, the legal system. The media. Structures of power and authority. In what possible way are they unfavourable to trans people and favourable to women?

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only, and the whys and wherefores of the every existence of women only spaces means fuck all, as usual!

The shame of it! To dismiss the struggle of suffragettes and feminists so bloody lightly! 100ish years... 100 fucking years! So little time yet such a big threat, yet so inconsequential, it seems!

If there was adequate funding that guaranteed every trans women facing domestic violence a safe space, away from men if necessary, then I couldn't give a shit if some refuges decide to be for womyn born womyn only,

If there is funding for all the men in need then you'll let women make a choice.

It's quite impressive how boldly you prioritise the needs of men over women.

You have said you are recognised as male, you use male facilities and you are concerned about men's needs.

Remind me why you think a feminist forum is interested in your thoughts?

But the women working in the refuge sector have told you, over and over again, that trans inclusion is not a problem for the sector, funding cuts however are. No! That isn't true. As has been pointed out again and again.

The women, workers and clients, in hostels have been hard pressed to say anything. The management, fund raisers, political hacks have told us whatever the prevailing POV wants them to tell us!

Sector funding cuts have been made BECAUSE female only refuges are not inclusive enough! Putting the horse before the cart always helps!

I want to laugh about this but it has so obviously been written from a place of contemp I can't.

I agree.

womyn born womyn

I want to laugh about this but it has so obviously been written from a place of contemp I can't.

So much fucking 'splaining on this thread and others. I think the "feminist" run through of the last 40 years in a couple of paragraphs was the nadir.

I suppose there's not much of an audience for the pub bore this year.

They would be as safe as other males. I really don't see how identifying as a woman makes them less safe than eg gay men.

Course you should start a campaign JJ.

When you are happy to tell any woman that they have 'sexually humiliated' a violent predator, by warning other women of his presence, you don't get to decide who does and doesn't go into women's spaces.

Your criteria for a transwoman being 'sexually humiliated' is that other women have reported them being predatory and violent in a women's shelter!

You're the last person to decide on what basis male born individuals should be accessing female spaces.

It's women's decision. And the answer is none.

Not one of the horrible things you describe have not happened to women, caused by men.

My best friend was 18 when she left her violent boyfriend (who she was living with at the time) on the night he tried to kill her. She ran out of the flat with just the clothes she was wearing. The next day she went to the police station, explained what had happened, and asked if an officer could come with her to the flat so she could get her belongings. She was told by the male police officer "we're not a taxi service love" and sent on her way. You could still see the finger marks around her neck where he tried to strangle her. She never went back to that flat. I think men don't realise (or want to realise) how commonplace violence towards women, from men, is and how little it is taken seriously.

Women deserve to have spaces that are completely free from men.

EdgeofaCoin yes, that's exactly where I'm at. I was raised to be respectful. I was also taught that respect must be given freely, and that one has no right to demand or expect it if one's own behaviour disrespects others. But above all I was taught that I had to respect my own boundaries if I wanted others to respect them.

And that is what I'm doing by saying no to this ideology with all of its facets.

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe.

And this is women's problem because...

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe. And trans women also sometimes need space away from men

And women need spaces away from men...

Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Why indeed.

Was getting the shit beaten out of me virtually everyday of my school life for being feminine to the point where I was an alcoholic at 14 and on the streets by 18 not enough for you?

Who beat the shit out of you? Were they male or female?

My presentation is androgynous and somewhat changeable. I usually use male spaces. Most people use male pronouns for me.

So why do you have a problem with what people on here are saying? The only thing I'd take issue with is that you should always use male spaces because you are male.

I don't really care but my experience is very different to that of a trans woman who lives that way all the time and who may have had medical procedures that mean in a lot of cases using male spaces is not just dangerous but massively impractical and potentially humiliating.

So you're making assumptions about how a different group of people feel. Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

And Karen White is why I support checks and balances and some degree of compromise, including the single sex exemption in some circumstances

Except in the last thread you prioritised a clearly dangerous sexual predator iver the women in the shelter. So my confidence in checks and balances that serve only to grant some males access to places they have no place being is non existent.

Where does the funding fir all these extra staff and safety features come from when there's not enough to even help the actual women?

Let's face it the TRAs wasted all their time and energy campaigning fir the right to infiltrate every last space on earth that men were banned from when they could have put it into setting up their own services. Ajd now you expect women to sort it out.

No.

And trans women also sometimes need space away from men.

Yes. So do women.

Well if you had spent less time campaigning to take over women's spaces, you might have your own spaces by now

Women aren't responsible for sorting out male violence against other men.

Women have had to fight for single-sex facilities, for our own privacy, dignity and safety. They're not just the 'not-men's', meant for men who can't use the men's room.

People consistently go on and on about trans people's feelings and how they don't feel validated and how terrible that is, and completely forget that women are people with feelings too. And it hurts me to see how misogynistic our society is, that my feelings count for zero.