BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

Apologies I thought you'd know that womyn was the term the original feminist anti-trans campaigners adopted in the US as in the Michigan Womyns Festival.

I'm not sure they were anti-trans. Just female separatist. Still, if they were anti-trans, let us note that one of the main trans campaigners against Michfest murdered two of the lesbians who ran the festival, and their son.

They clearly showed excellent judgement in excluding that transwoman from the festival, didn't they?

"So again it's a balance, should trans women risk sexual assault and violence and use spaces which are not designed for them to protect a very small percentage of women from feeling uncomfortable."

Firstly, I have NEVER heard of a case where a trans woman has been assaulted or attacked in a male bathroom. I have heard of a few cases where a trans woman has been attacked in a female bathroom.

More to the point, though, I find it very offensive that the risk of male violence and sexual assault is only taken seriously when the victims are trans women. Here's how the conversation seems to go:
women: we are scared of men in the toilets.
trans rights activists: well, suck it up, rape's going to happen anyway, nothing you can do about it, there isn't a law banning men from going into the bathroom. Why does no one every say 'tough luck' to trans women?

It's also really shitty how women's concerns about safety and dignity are brushed aside as being 'uncomfortable'. I had the misfortune of having to use a single sex toilet the other day and a very drunk man talked to me through the door and began hitting on me. I was really scared he would try to get in, and I waited for ages until he left. This isn't just about 'discomfort' - when I was a kid, one of my friends was sexually assaulted in a unisex toilet.

And finally I would argue there is no 'balance' to be had. You don't get to come into female spaces. They're not for you. If you want balance, go take it up with the men and get them to stop behaving so badly.

men*

If trans people tonight decided to fund raise and build and set up services exclusively fir you wed be there. Helping. Donating. Signing whatever petition you needed us to

I don't believe you. I think the second those spaces attracted mainstream funding you'd attack them for eating into the depserately shrinking VAWG sector's budget. The fact is trans refues would be half empty most of the time and they wouldn't be able to attract enough housing benefit claims to keep them open. The women working in the VAWG sector don't want this, they want as much funding as can be made available and to manage trans inclusion on a case by case basis as they have done for decades in some instances. Why don't you care what women who actually run the refuge's want?

Apologies I thought you'd know that womyn was the term the original feminist anti-trans campaigners adopted in the US as in the Michigan Womyns Festival.

Oh yes, the festival that was destroyed and shut down because it wouldn't admit me. identifying as women. Targeted with quite appalling violence.

Shame you don't know about that.

So again it's a balance, should trans women risk sexual assault and violence and use spaces which are not designed for them to protect a very small percentage of women from feeling uncomfortable. I'm not sure that's so fair personally.

A minute ago it was transwomen who were a very small percentage. So rare, in fact, that it would be a yearly occurrence.

Now it's the other way round?

You expect women to have their spaces become mixed sex because of something that happens on, according to you, an annual basis?

You can't get your story straight JJ.

I have yet to see any evidence that trans women in women's toilets or changing rooms are a threat

They are at least the same threat as men.

should trans women risk sexual assault and violence and use spaces which are not designed for them to protect a very small percentage of women from feeling uncomfortable

Should women risk sexual assault and violence and allow men into spaces not designed for them to protect a small percentage of men from feeling uncomfortable?

I'd like to see proper secure spaces, enclosed toilets with sinks for example

I'm fairly certain that most women would encourage your campaign for the addition of mixed sex toilets to the current provision.

Under your system a trans women facing violence at some point in her life in a men's space seems virtually assured, whereas the chance of a woman facing violence in a women's space due to trans inclusion is millions to one

What is it with this criteria of sufficient trauma before consideration of a reprieve from facing males nonsense ?

If we say no. We mean no. Its not open to discussion abd having to declare reasoning band men decide whether or not to authorise.

What gives you the right to decide that for us?

If trans people tonight decided to fund raise and build and set up services exclusively fir you wed be there. Helping. Donating. Signing whatever petition you needed us to

But you know that don't you ...

You rely solely on the victim status you think you can gain from nasty women ( people you cant even bring yourself to define you hate us that much ) saying no

What do you have against a campaign ti make make shelters safer and/or setting up one for trans people? Is it not validating enough?

Both in some cases, although the bullying from girls was mostly verbal.

So you're making assumptions about how a different group of people feel. Yet you can't extend your empathy to women who might feel threatened or humiliated by the presence of someone obviously male in what should be a female-only space. Why is that?

Well I've been dragged into the women's toilets by non trans women friends enough times to know that the feeling of threat or humiliation is far from universal. And I do empathise, and by and large I use men's spaces unless I'm at a queer type event or something where no-one really gives a shit. But that's because I present as male. I have yet to see any evidence that trans women in women's toilets or changing rooms are a threat, or indeed that most women even care. So again it's a balance, should trans women risk sexual assault and violence and use spaces which are not designed for them to protect a very small percentage of women from feeling uncomfortable. I'm not sure that's so fair personally. I'd like to see proper secure spaces, enclosed toilets with sinks for example, that everyone can use, much like you often see in Europe and which are actually becoming pretty common in smaller venues in the UK.

You don't see us as human, do you JJ?

Is there not a difference in a woman coming across a trans women in the toilets about once a year or so and trans women having to share intimate spaces which aren't designed for trans women with lots of men every single day? In terms of balancing risk at least, if you acknowledge trans women are at risk of sexual and other forms of violence

Yes male violence is a huge problem. Take that up with the men. Women's spaces are for women, not for women and men who are more likely to incur male abuse for whatever reason.

Transwomen should use the spaces for their sex, or campaign for their own spaces.

You need also to consider the trauma to a woman who has been so abused by a man that she's had to run away from him with only what she stood up in, and then has to live in the same shared space as what she is aware is a person with male genitals and voice, every single day. and try to get to sleep at night knowing that a person in the same class as the one who so abused her is in the same building as she is.

These actual people, who happen top be women, do need the same consideration as your hypothetical trans woman, don't they? Or do they not exist, or if they do exist not matter in the slightest?

For the second time it is not only about balancing risks. It's about women's privacy, dignity, boundaries, consent and comfort. This is a thread about pronouns, which is about personal feelings and validation of your gender identity. Women also have feelings. These deserve to be respected.

Male on male violence isn't women's problem to deal with. Sort it out.

why is every single institution of the Patriarchy currently at war with trans people

Not that I've seen. The majority seem at present to bend over backwards to placate trans people and attend to their grievances, and demand (often with menaces of one sort and another) that all women must at all times do the same.

The real question is, of what do you think this "war" consists? Actual harm -- lower wages, for instance, and reports of crime against them being ignored? Or failing to pander to someone's every stray feeling?

But as we have seen, the chance of a woman being assaulted by a trans woman, or a man pretending to be a trans women, in women's spaces is millions to one.

I haven't actually seen that. Can you give a link to the data, please?

The rate of violent crime, including rape, committed by trans women (where is still recorded as being by trans women and not women, which is in itself a scandal but not relevant here) is the same as the rate for similar crime committed by heterosexual normative men. There is no reason to think that this will be altered by the realisation "oh, no, I mustn't attack this woman I have got on her own -- we're in a women-only public lavatory, it would be wrong", is there.

Men's hostels and refuges won't let trans women in because they know they wouldn't be safe.

This is a problem of male violence, not female violence. Take it up on men's discussion boards, where men talk with men; it really isn't needed here, where in that respect you are definitely preaching to the choir.

May I just mention that the Morning Star printed one cartoon, sacked the cartoonist in response to complaints and then outright grovelled about having printed it.

Months later, they're still being maligned as transphobic.

Honestly, the 'might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb' saying comes to mind.

So much insight available on this thread, for lurkers.

Oy, women over there! That facility you've brought into existence out of nothing by your own efforts. We'll have that. Hand it over! We can't be bothered to do all that work - it's easier just to take yours

Its most bizarre that no one thought to set up their own refuge... almost as if its not really about fulfilling a need or ensuring safety.
.whats it about I wonder 🤔

Its a source of joy on twitter when funding is removed or things get shut down.

Its a source of joy on twitter when things are designated mixed instead of single sex. Bizarre really as wont those men who beat them up still be there?

The only thing that provokes rage is when they are told no. By women.

Five minutes ago it was womxn. 🙄

We have natal women, womyn born womyn, cis women, biological women, menstruators, chest feeders, cervix havers and, er, birthing people.

The desperation to not say what we are.

Woman.

Interestingly, I haven't heard menopausal women reduced to a description. Although I strongly suspect it's because they just get forgotten about altogether...