BBC Bitsize - Pronouns

I don't think you've been paying attention, jj.

And many of those groups frequently get out on the streets in numbers and protest against their rights violations. And I have joined them many times. My point was if the gender critical view is what women want as a collective then why can't you put more than 50 people on the streets? Where are the people risking arrests and livelihoods like there are in other movements? Why aren't there any gender critical activists in jail given you claim to be fighting against the forced extinction of women? It's all a bit insepid don't you think? I'm not sure the Suffragettes would be impressed.

I don't think anyone is being asked to give up any rights.

Are you serious?

This is still on the Stonewall website.

www.stonewall.org.uk/women-and-equalities-select-committee-inquiry-transgender-equality

I support the EA 2010 as it stands.

Including the single sex exemptions?

It's very peculiar and it sort of makes me think of 'you lot' as a bit of a hive mind. But I shall try and avoid it in future.

You're going to need to, because it was made very clear on another thread that attacking groups such as trans people and gender critical feminists through negative generalisations isn't going to be tolerated by the moderators. And I'm sure the rules apply to you as much as anyone else.

Sorry, thread too fast, mine above was in response to more gaslighting re penis in women's shelter

And yet trans people are still discriminated against in jobs, housing and services

Illegally

You think three year waiting lists are adequate?

Absolutely not, but it is hardly unique to trans specific treatments.

And yet trans people still face harassment and assault from men

Illegally.

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

All(?) ID can currently be changed without a GRC. A birth certificate can be changed with a GRC which is not expensive and has concession rates available. It is not particularly onerous either compared to, for example, getting disability benefits.

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and in workplaces

As do BAME people, and women, and gay men, and disabled people, and....

Transgender people have the same rights as everyone else under the law. Shitty things happen to people in all the protected characteristics unfortunately, despite discrimination being illegal.

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and the workplace

Whereas women of course sail through life never ever being abused or assaulted

Women are murdered at the rate of 2 a week but yeah sure it’s TW who are the ones really suffering here

And you know there Could have been common cause with women & TW on pushing back against male aggression but instead TRA chose to scream nodebate & push aggressively into women’s spaces and that opportunity has been lost

Yeah, all the nopes. And the thread is there for anyone to see the gaslighting. It all should be seen in context for it was astounding.

This thread has been very enlightening about things I've been wondering for a while.

I loved the responses on the BBC Facebook page; it's very heartening to see.

It's like listening to people read off a script sometimes.

Like TWAW? TMAM? Like 'Acceptance Without Exception'? Like 'It doesn't exist' with regards to a certain condition?

And yet trans people are still discriminated against in jobs, housing and services.

Yes, so are women. The legal protection is exactly the same.

You think three year waiting lists are adequate?

No, but neither do I think long waiting lists in other healthcare areas are acceptable.

And yet trans people still face harassment and assault from men

And yet women face harassment and assault from male people, gender identity is irrelevant to it.

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

You have the GRA.

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and in workplaces.

And yet so do women.

This isn't a game of top trumps, jj. Some of our issues are similar, some different. You say you don't even present as a woman the majority of the time so you're not even being perceived as one. But women deserve privacy, dignity and comfort, and to have our feelings listened to and respected.

You need to advocate for third spaces, because a considerable number of women aren't putting themselves second to males this time.

I also made it quite clear that if that person had done the things alleged then I hoped it was dealt with by the staff and they were kicked out and if necessary prosecuted.

It's like listening to people read off a script sometimes. It's very peculiar and it sort of makes me think of 'you lot' as a bit of a hive mind. But I shall try and avoid it in future.

I read that to say "you guys ARE pretty shitty, but I'll try to avoid saying it" so still not a hallmark of a respectful, engaged debate.

Yeah, we all think the exact same way

Some people think that trans people have all the rights they need in law, others don't
Some people think that being misgendered or abandoning gender pronouns is cool, others don't
Shall I carry on?

Or have you redefined the words "think the same way" like you want to redefine "woman" to mean the opposite ?

Yes, jj1968, all of those rights violations and many more are happening to other groups discriminated against on the basis of sex, religion/belief, sexuality, age, disability or race/ethnicity, too.

And yet proponents of self-id argue that other protected groups must give up their rights in order to redress the rights violations experienced by those who identify as trans - even though other disadvantaged groups are not responsible for those rights violations.

How do you justify that?

It's just weird though you see, this is such a broad issue with so many different variables and offshoots and yet you all think exactly the same thing on every single angle of it. It's like listening to people read off a script sometimes. It's very peculiar and it sort of makes me think of 'you lot' as a bit of a hive mind. But I shall try and avoid it in future.

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

Why not just ask why sex is relevant to opening a bank account?

Either sex is relevant and its just a simple objective fact that should be declared, or it isn't.

Plenty of people have different names on birth certificates - you just produce the relevant document that explains why your name is different.

Actually I do believe that transpeople May experience extra discrimination

I just don't think that the solution is to pretend that transwomen are actually women

The solution should be for appropriate adjustments and counterbalancing discriminations, like women have. And years ago I would have campaigned with them for that.

Most women's services were started by women who had nothing, and who put time and energy and resources they couldn't spare - but spared anyway - in order to help themselves and other women. Some of the early refuges were started in squats.

Stonewall - to take one example of a trans activism group - has reserves of about 5 million quid, an annual turnover of more than a million and a half quid, and something like 160 employees. Their CEO makes over £100k pa, and several more of their employees aren't far behind.

Can you imagine if Stonewall devoted a fraction of these considerable resources to campaigning for refuge provision for gender nonconforming men, instead of campaigning to steal women's refuges from the women that need them?

Such great points, ArcheryAnnie

So how is that solved by removing women sex based rights?

Whats that got to do with us?

I'm all for non binary or trans people opting for they (singular) if that's what they (comfortable) feel happy with, I'm used to having non gendered language (Romance language omits the pronoun and goes straight to a third person verb) but inventing new ones... big eye roll.

Agree - at a certain point (I think after 'they') the word stops being a pronoun and just becomes a noun.

And yet trans people are still discriminated against in jobs, housing and services.

come on. this is definitely a thing

You think three year waiting lists are adequate?

you have this, everyone has this

And yet trans people still face harassment and assault from men

what the fuck does this mean? what do you want, a party?

More ID and birth certificates so trans people aren't accused of fraud every time they use a bank or locked up if they go through customs in some places

you have this. everyone has this

and yet trans people regularly face abuse and assault in the streets and in workplaces.

It's more like saying "you must call six 'zip' and sixty 'zooie'. Six is real. Zip and zooie are made up.

Now that's what I call gaslighting.