Jk Rowling and trans issues... talk to me!

On a sick day from work and have read this full thread. I'm closet GC -have to be because I have a business and can't risk being identified as other than "kind".

I also have trans friends of both genders, my transmen friends pretty much quietly get on with it and are living their best lives.

My TW friends are a mixed bag, and it was the discussion upthread that made me realise something - the thing about accepting TW as Women not taking anything away from biological women. This I will say - in my experience, when having conversations / interactions with my TW friends, their experience of self chosen "womanhood" dominates conversations. As a woman, I have to dance around the subject and cannot share, woman to woman a lived experience with a TW. I talk about menopause, motherhood, abusive relationship issues, all sorts with my female friends, even if we have not experienced exactly the same things our biology and sex discrimination unites us and we can relate / empathise. So when I accept a TW as a woman I can talk about fashion etc, practical appearance issues, but not anything more fundamental because it may offend or trigger them because they covet that which is mine by accident of birth, and their lack is perceived as far greater than any negative experience I have had because of my sex.

One of my TW friends suffers terribly due to her dysphoria - but if I was to empathise because I wan't born a six foot supermodel either, it wouldn't be seen as woman to woman empathy, it would be seen as not understanding a far greater and more profound struggle - I was bulimic for over 20 years due to body esteem issues but that's obviously nowhere near as traumatic as the TW position.

When a TW enters the "world of womanhood" I don't know what they expect. I can be kind and understanding and helpful until the cows come home, but they won't understand my struggles any more than I can understand theirs because it's really feckin complicated.

As a woman, having a one sided conversation with a TW who wants to be just like me but is missing the fundamental experience of growing up female, and who will pretty much always over-ride my experiences and bring it all back down to their superior struggle, plus the walking on eggshells for fear of being labelled unintentionally transphobic I do feel something is being taken away from me - the right to free speech and the sharing of opinions without being condemned for it and punished by people claiming to be my friends and allies when in some regards they never can be - because biology.

Yes, they are coffee.

They did not disclose they were male and were employed in a female role. Having no certificate despite it being 2014 when they got the role (or so I believe). They manage the refuge. So, a prime example of a male gaining employment set aside for a female.

Of course, unless someone actively publicises that they chose not to use that service at risk of being further traumatised, it will not go addressed. Someone may come out year's afterward and discuss it but I doubt any women having needed that service wishes to expose themselves to the barrage of hate that would come their way.

No erasure here at all though..... nothing to seeee ....

Winesalot, isn’t the person on the SNP list the one who despite saying that only biological females should work in a woman’s shelter now actually work in a woman’s shelter in a role reserved for women?

I remember a thread on MN this spring when a woman wanted to leave her abusive husband and flee to a shelter. She decided against it when a male sounding voice answered and stated that they were a woman (and had a female name). Probably not the same as the person in the article.

OP and Quaagars is this also something that is OK in your view?

Or is it so important to be kind (and given that the OP not is likely to need a shelter) that this is unimportant? A small sacrifice in order to include trans women?

This too.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/59c74c62-13ee-11eb-9859-b09ba5b6a3c4?shareToken=5c190285f309da669d80fae2cfc64e88

This seems pertinent.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6197705/City-workers-hit-gender-fluid-banker-works-days-Philip-Pippa.html

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree as trans people and their rights does not make my existence as a woman any less, I don't feel like I'm going to pop out of existence as a result, or that I suddenly aren't one anymore.

So if the job you applied for that was restricted to women was given to a male who had benefited from opportunities that you did not get due to sexism from an early age, now identified as a woman, you would not feel ‘erased’, ‘not seen’ or frankly discriminated against in some way?

You would just feel you had to try harder somehow for next time?

Or is it that you don’t believe that person had any benefit from sexist discrimination in their past?

See, this whole 'being erased as a woman' thing comes down to how you define 'woman'. It always does.

If your definition of 'woman' is 'adult human female' i.e. a member of the class of people that produces large gametes (ova), then no male will ever be 'a woman'. Or, if biological males are classified as 'women', then the term no longer denotes what it originally denoted. It becomes meaningless.

'Women' are no longer a distinct sex class with specific needs pertaining to that class. It becomes impossible to protect women in law. ('We will fire anyone who gets pregnant. It's not sex discrimination as men get pregnant too.' 'We will hire Stephanie-formerly-Stephen for the role, as at least we know she won't need maternity leave. Oh and we can tick the box that says we've hired a woman, thus meeting our diversity targets for the year'.)

If your definition of 'woman' is something else, Quaagars, please share it with me so that I can reflect on my views. But please don't say 'a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman' because that doesn't help me understand. You might as well say 'a quittigee is anyone who identifies as a quittigee'.

What is your understanding of the word 'woman'?

Sorry - I meant FGM, but really wish I didn’t.

I am still waiting to hear why blocking the Wyoming law against female genital mutilation is good for girls.

But maybe they are just an accepted casualty in order to enable children who are too young to vote or to drink legally to have gender reassignment...

Wait, what? Apart from the horror of what this means for girls, are Wyoming and TRAs actually agreeing that sex reassignment surgery is on par with FGM?

Isn’t that transphobic because surely the SRS is ‘vital and life saving surgery’ and FMG is awful abuse perpetrated against unwilling victims.

The roll back of women and girls protection has just hit an all time low for me. I find this news really upsetting. The injustice is abhorrent.

Are you talking about the one with the rapists and paedophiles?

Maybe its the one that shows men pretending to be things in order to attack and rape? Far fetched apparently

Quaggers must have missed that part 😒

@Quaagars I'm just checking because I can't be sure.... but you do realise that every time that you ignore fundamental questions regarding this topic in favour of derailing, everyone reading the thread can see it?

I meant bunters asked for evidence of infiltrating women's spaces and those Twitter links don't and are just mainly links of the same person tweeting the same list of people.

I really think some people just don't think care about dismantling any safety measures in place which makes access a lot easier for rapists and paedophiles. Personally, I don't know I would trust the moral compass of someone, when confronted by a litany of crimes by rapists and paedophiles , ignores the paedophilia and rape part of it and flippantly says "oh it just reels off a list and picture of some trans women."

Please explain your reasoning.

Plus two of the Twitter links are the same ones/the same person tweeting the same list of pictures?

Clicked on that top Twitter link - not quite sure how that relates to what you've actually quoted of Bunters, where they asked for evidence of taking over women's spaces - it just reels off a list and pictures of some trans women from what I can see?

The break it down threads i mean

Is bunters still reading do we think?

@bunters

What is the evidence for many trans women trying to take over women's spaces? I read about boys supposedly pretending to be trans to gain access to girls bathrooms and I have to say it sounds a little far fetched, and even if it's true, it's surely rare? And even if not, what do they do once they're in there?

twitter.com/CarlBrownisback/status/1292908123913584641

twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1234230311564840960

twitter.com/dkgf01/status/1292915379992485889

twitter.com/bunifoosh/status/1298389741637980165

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

So I see quags hasn't replied as to what makes them think transwomen are women.

I'm going to risk suggesting they haven't answered that because there is no basis for it.

I am struggling to think of something that I consider a fact that I wouldn't be able to justify rationally.

Indeed Datun!

You have to, to argue that black is white, except it's black because it's not actually white, except it is white, but not when it wants to be black...