Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

Religion is a choice. Becoming a citizen is a choice. He chose religion over citizenship. Fair enough.

Should Tim Faron be stripped of his citizenship for apparently considering homosexuality a sin?

Or gender critical women for refusing to say ' transwomen are women'?

I'm not muslim, but I've lived in a muslim country, where I shook hands with my muslim co-workers, bank employees etc. Where shopping centres were decorated for Christmas, and the muslim checkout staff would happily wish me Merry Christmas (but I had to buy pork or alcohol at a separate till), with my friend's father at her wedding, and many of her friends and relatives etc.

I think that it's less religious, and more cultural, as all of these people I worked with went off for Friday prayers, they just adjusted their expectations and behaviour depending on the circumstances. Professional occasion, meant that I was a colleague.

In fact I've heard of it much more in the UK, than I ever did when living in a country with Islam as the official religion - albeit clearly a progressive country.

I’ve had someone do this to me, I was in a work environment, went to shake his hand as he had done to both men with me, and he firmly put his hands behind his back and declined (politely) saying it’s against his beliefs.

It felt dismissive, humiliating and while I was the senior person in the exchange, belittling. Followed by a “mans” conversation between the men. I respect cultural differences but this does matter, if affects your view of women.

Why do you think it's severe? It's not like he's going to prison or being deported

Because he had built up an entire life here? It takes a long time to go through citizenship. He studied medicine in Germnay and worked in practice. He must have been there for a very, very long time. He presumably had a home, as well as work and relationships, as well as all his expectations for his whole future. To suddenly have all that removed is traumatic.

If you cannot see why that is severe then you need to thank yourself everyday to have never been in that situation. I have been and it almost broke me.

The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

Bloody good on her!! Very glad she’s was supported by not just her employer but her government on this.

It’s great she didn’t hand over the certificate. I’m glad it was backed.

I wouldn’t say they made the wrong decision, but what we are now seeeing could also be the start of a slippery slope. Vegetarianism is pretty uncommon in France, perhaps just 2-3%. Eating is a huge kart if French culture, and meat/fish is a big part of that. If a would be citizen refuses the food at his precermony lunch, should he be refused citizenship? Once you move past legal requirements (respect the law, the constitution, etc) and start moving toward cultural beliefs, norms and behaviors where is the line? Should Tim Faron be stripped of his citizenship for apparently considering homosexuality a sin? I understand the decision, but it’s a slippery slope.

Good for her. I agree with their ruling. If he doesn't want to adopt Germany's culture then he doesn't have to live there. It's nice to see officials standing up for women to be treated as equals for a change. It's disrespectful of him to behave like that and religion is just an excuse for this kind of sexism.

I took this test, years ago. The questions were insane; no normal Brit would know some of the answers. Such as, "how many Bangladeshis emigrated to the UK in the year 1996"?

Yes the citizenship tests are a joke. They really need to be asking more important things like principles of free speech, equality and so on. Who cares what percentage of Bangladeshis are there etc. That doesn't impact on someone being a good citizen.

I lived and worked in France for a while - back in the 90s - and most of my colleagues made a point of shaking hands every day, a couple liked to kiss on the cheeks but that was rare. It was part of the daily ritual.

.. but denying citizenship is a pretty severe sanction.

Why do you think it's severe? It's not like he's going to prison or being deported..

And I agree with you Nonny, too.

A pp said that if it was made clear that a handshake was part of the conditions of citizenship, then fair enough. Not sure it was though.

It's quite likely this was not explicitly part of conditions of citizenship, however, as I mentioned before, if a foreigner (including myself) has lived somewhere long enough to apply for citizenship, they will be quite aware of the importance and significance of certain cultural gestures like handshakes.

There may be room for improvement in the process. When I applied for British citizenship, I had to specify whether I wanted to swear a religious oath or a secular one (couldn't opt out of swearing allegiance to the monarch as that is mandatory). So I couldn't decide on the day whether to accept or refuse a religious oath. People who forgot to tick the relevant box on the application form had to go with the religious oath. Simply skipping it because you didn't like it was not allowed.

Maybe something similar could be used with regards to handshakes - if you do not wish to shake hands, you have to demonstrate your respect for the ceremonial process in another manner, whether bowing or hand on heart etc. But a respectful gesture must be made rather than simply outright refusal.

This is interesting. There was a thread a while ago when a women said a male muslim colleague would not shake her hand but instead would put his hand over his heart as a greeting to her instead.

A lot of posters were sympathetic to the man and considered the heart gesture to be respectful.

Personally, I can see why the woman in that previous thread was offended. It is because by refusing to shake her hand he is seeing her primarily as a sexual being and not as fellow professional, in the way that he will see his male colleagues. It's quite a public symbol that she is not quite equal. Though of course, I don't know if in every other way he treated her as an equal at work.

Not sure if I agree the man in this thread should be denied citizenship though. I dislike this cultural practice, but denying citizenship is a pretty severe sanction.

Every nation has the right to stipulate terms and conditions on acquiring citizenship.

I agree but any essential terms should be explicitly laid out. It seems very harsh to deny someone citizenship (with all the serious ramifications that may have) at the last minute based on unwritten rules and customs.

The enlightenment has brought so much to the Western world and even though we have such a long, long way to go to achieve equality of esteem, (witness the daily online misogyny) it is wonderful when a country stands up for the right to respect of the women of that country. Well done Germany. Imagine if this man decided not to shake hands with Angela Merkel.

As for those trotting out the "well a muslim woman would not shake hands with a man either" - do you never self examine, reflect and use critical thinking on your adherence to certain rules of your religion? I was brought up Catholic but have realised I cannot be both a feminist, believing in the equality of women, and Catholicism. So I have removed myself from the religion. Perhaps wider reading and reflection could encourage some muslim posters to look at how you can believe in the equality of women on this earth and also believe in islam?

Regardless of whether or not the act is seen as sexist, I can see that the cultural values in this instance clash and that it indicates a conflict in Integration which is the at the root of The naturalisation process. I would be accepting of their beliefs and their choice to follow these practices in day to day life however the person is asking to be granted citizenship, they are not being compelled to do anything, it has simply become apparent that their beliefs are in conflict with the values of the country and so this will not be granted. Removing citizenship is a different question and is (rightly IMO) harder than not giving something.

I have a friend who has recently become a British citizen, he had to do a test that included knowledge of how much a stamp costs in this country. Compared to that this is sanilty.

derail:
I took this test, years ago. The questions were insane; no normal Brit would know some of the answers. Such as, "how many Bangladeshis emigrated to the UK in the year 1996"?

I'm now wondering if he would shake the hand of a trans man or a trans woman? How would that go?

Tricky little conundrum for the chap.

Yes, but clearly, the handshake was necessary touching as it was part of demonstrating he was becoming a citizen. Again, my discomfort with this is that he would have had no issue shaking the hand of a man, so it is an entirely sexist position to hold, religiously motivated or not.

I don't think anyone should be compelled to touch someone else, obviously, but I do think it's fine to challenge the motivations of those choices in very specific contexts. Like, right now, I don't shake anyone's hand and I suspect I never will again. I'm happy for it to die away as a cultural practice, and if asked why, I would explain that it's for hygiene reasons. That's not unfairly discriminatory.

If this guy had started by saying he never shook hands with anyone, he'd have had a better case, imo. The fact that his base, starting point is that he won't shake a woman's hand is arbitrary and rooted in highly questionable and sexist ideas.

A pp said that if it was made clear that a handshake was part of the conditions of citizenship, then fair enough. Not sure it was though.

I had an Afghan Muslim driving instructor last year who refused to shake my hand. I was pretty offended.

but merely shaking hands because society says you should does not mean they should be forced to do so

No-one is being 'forced' here - the culture into which the man is requesting acceptance puts great store in handshakes. By refusing to participate the man is rejecting the cultural norm so has no grounds to 'force' his acceptance.

A pp complained 'why does everyone have to bend to Western culture' - everyone doesn't - but if you want to participate then it's unreasonable to expect to go against norms and be treated in the same way as a conformist.

I just about remember, long ago, a briefing about interaction with Japanese business - we (western) wanted to sell to a Japanese Corp - we would not have dreamed of not bowing correctly or not respecting the need to build relationships etc. 'when in rome...'

FWIW any religion that discriminates on the basis of sex should itself be discriminated against (loss of charitable status, tax treatment etc) . & that includes Catholicism - when I was a child women had to wear headscarves in church, at least that part of the nonsense has stopped.

The fact that he's tried to wheedle out of it afterwards does make me think he's behaving rather contemptously towards his chosen country, which won't have helped his case.

Yes, all of a sudden he says he isn't going to shake men's hands either? Yeah right. Stick to your principles with grace at least.