Part 4/4
Kristen: Debbie. What's that like hearing Stephanie talk about your marriage these days in those terms?
Debbie: Yeah, I'd probably say that Stephanie is my best friend and it's been my best friend since I since I met her 30 years ago . And for me, I wanted to stay together because she's my friend, I love her very much and being with her was much better than not being with her. We were already married, and I wanted to keep that relationship, or what relationship we could move forward with
Kristen: Mmm. And so Stephanie, I've got a question for you and this is coming from the minds of listeners. I know it because I've heard it and so it's kind of a difficult question. But first off do you consider yourself a lesbian? That's a very sort of political question and a personal one at the same time. And how has this impacted your sense of your sexuality, your identity and the second half of that question is, do you miss being in a relationship with a man?
Stephanie: And to the first bit, do I consider myself a lesbian? No, I think what it has made me realize though is how innate our sexuality is, it's given me a much greater understanding of the LGB community, that it isn't that easy just to switch his sexuality and I am not a lesbian and I can't switch it, because it would be easier if I could. So that's the first answer.
The second answer. Do I miss being in a relationship with a man? Yes, I do. That is a grief to me but not big enough to say, 'Well, actually I'm going to get divorced and get out there and have a look'. Debbie is my best friend and I think at the moment that's, that's my choice. That makes it sound like I'm going to change it. But no, that is that is a choice. Yes. I do miss that kind of relationship. But I've also usually got on with men far better than women. So I actually have a number of male friends and so I can have that friendship, even if I don't have that intimate relationship
Kristen: These are such tough questions, and they're questions that families are dealing with and asking themselves right now. And in fact, one of my very best friends who's in a domestic partnership with a transwoman. They were married, they did divorce then they re-entered a domestic partnership because they still cared about each other so much and considered each other family.
And these are the questions that she's asking herself. Can I remarry this person actually or will I be okay without that aspect of my own sexuality and so I thank you for speaking so openly about it because there are real families, real women, real transgender women and people who are asking themselves these questions right now, wondering how they're going to navigate going forward.
I want to ask Debbie. So in your bio we talked about how you're a bit of a public persona now and you've been doing some speaking and some writing on issues of transgender rights and equality. And I wonder if you can just kind of tell us a little bit about what it is that you do and what kind of writing you do. What kind of speaking you do and what's happening out there in the sort of political sphere which I know gets really heated on the question of transgender rights Etc. So what's happening out there tell us
Debbie: it's very heated. It seems to be the most polarized and toxic political debate I've ever known, but it's something which is personal to me. It was four years ago, the government in the UK decided that they wanted to change the law so that we'd move from a system where people can change their sex, their legal sex, that's the sex marked on your birth certificate, from needing a doctor's diagnosis and medical reports to basically being a free-for-all. At the time, I thought that was a bad idea because the credibility in the system came from those checks and balances.
So I started campaigning. I felt that this change would make trans people less secure in society, it would damage our position in society and basically make people trust us less I felt, so I didn't think it was a good idea. So I started campaigning on it and over the next year or so, I formed alliances with different people. And there was two groups really which I came across, one were women who were protective of their of their rights, their boundaries and their ability to you know, guard the access to their own spaces, and they felt that that was something for them to decide rather than a male person to be able to identify into it.
And then also there are other there are other groups campaigning about the impact on children which, as a teacher, I've also got some very strong views about. So I got I got embroiled in this but over that period, it's the last three years really, it became clear to me and working with the women campaigning, it really became clear to me that I wasn't any kind of woman, that women were different.
You know, I'm male, women are female and this to me was ... I'm a scientist and yes biological sex matters, biological sex is real, and the two sexes are different. And I started opening my mouth and saying what I thought on this and the reaction was intense it really was, and very negative.
And I guess different people would have would have backed off at that point but I am a little bit contrary and when people tell me, when people start objecting I then think well, okay, let's you know, let's push a bit harder and see what happens. So I did get to the point when I was able to say what I actually felt was true, without being constrained by the views of others. So you know, I was I was debating was debating my arguments, which I felt were reasoned and based in science. And that I think did it did set me apart from others, because others either thought differently, or those who do think the same are less willing to actually speak out because the reaction it generates.
Kristen: No, I mean, so just to kind of highlight for our listeners. So I think there's multiple points of sort of debate around transgender rights at the moment and it's a bit different in the UK than in the US right now because the UK has the self-id, the change to the gender recognition act which would enable self ID which is what you're referring to. But also just the basic principle that as a transgender woman, am I male or am I female, that's a debated point in the transgender community. For some it is heresy to say yes, I am a male and I am a transgender woman because there's a group of transgender people and not transgender people and cis people who believe that you know, if you're a transgender woman you are female. So it's kind of a wild ride in the transgender community right now as far as this conversation is concerned.
Debbie: Yes, it is. And it is viewed in some areas that if I say I am a transgender woman and I am male, that's almost seen as hate speech to some people. Yeah, because by saying that, I'm accused of denying their identity, but when they say they are transgender woman, and they are female. I don't I don't feel that denies my identity, I just think they're wrong. And people are wrong about lots of things. And so there's an asymmetry there, a huge asymmetry where one side is allowed to make their arguments and the other side just thinks they're wrong. And when I make my arguments I'm accused of being a hateful bigot denying people's identity. It doesn't add up.
Kristen: Even though you're a transgender whatever, you know internalized transphobia kind of thing.
Debbie: Yeah, I guess yeah. I get accused of internalized transphobia or not being really trans, I'm masquerading as a trans person.
Kristen: Stephanie what is all of this like for you watching sort of Debbie's public life and as she's become more outspoken and known for that outspokenness. What's it like watching all of this for you?
Stephanie: I do stay away from it to a large extent. I think we can only have one campaigner in the family. It makes Debbie very busy, but apart from that sometimes I know that there can be a number of hateful comments and she gets a bit down about it . I think she tries to limit that and sensibly quite keep it in a smaller container. There are occasions where we discuss certain things, and I think over the years, because Debbie and I have been discussing these issues that actually I know there are some areas where Debbie is actually thought, 'Oh, yes, okay. I've been thinking this and now Stephanie is saying something different, maybe I need to consider Stephanie's point of view as well.' So I've noticed something some small changes in what Debbie has been saying because we've been talking about it. But the rest of the campaigning, I sit, and I think I'm glad I'm not doing it.
Kristen: But you're like, I'm gonna go make some bread! Well, we're at time and Podcast today and I just want to again thank you both so much for coming on and talking about these really challenging difficult and deeply human issues and experiences. And yeah, thank you for being with us today.