Can any clever mumsnetters educate me on beauty privilege?

I struggle with it to readandwalk.

And I don't like discussing individual women but the nigella example is interesting.

I don't know in depth but what I do know is

Both to wealth. Presumably great education.
First husband died. He encouraged her with the food writing etc. Really tragic- he was young and wrote about it as he got iller.
Anyway.
Whose idea was it to be all sexy on the TV? Hers? Maybe. More likely the producers etc.
Married a Saatchi. Super rich. Photoed with his hands round her neck in a restaurant. Christ knows what he did at home.
Divorce- he tried to utterly destroy her reputation.

So all in all, not much fun.

I would also say that while she's pretty a lot of it is grooming... Which is why I hate these threads.

I would argue that her opportunities were more because of her family and connections etc than her looks. She wanted to write about food. She clearly loves cooking and food.

Who suggested that she lick spoons suggestively at the camera? As a highly educated person with a huge passion for the topic I'm guessing not her. Could be wrong obv.

Her massive wealth and looks didn't stop her from being in a relationship where a man thought nothing of grabbing her round the neck in a restaurant though. In public.

Privilege? Sure. Wealth and connections mainly.
Didn't protect her from a violent man though did it.

Airways thought Naomi Wolf had this.

I have some weird latent idea that clever woman shouldn't also be very attractive

I think this is more likely coupled with the converse idea that very pretty women can't be clever.

I think that actually most young women are looks wise at the very, very worst unexceptional and many are a great deal more than that.

There was a very silly opening post in a recent thread about how Holliday Grainger in the Cormoran Strike series was an unrealistic glammed up dolly bird. To me Holliday Grainger looked no more glammed up or unrealistic than the vast majority of young women working in offices or a public facing role.

If you take an average looking young woman of average height and build there's a hell of a lot which can be done by make-up artists, stylists, hairdressers and good lighting. Most people scrub up surprisingly well and being young obviously helps.

Of course. I mean look at Nigella. Some women are just beautiful to look at and this always has a biased audience. But statistically most people are average. Likewise people who are academically brilliant often crash and burn as the expectations are too much.

The expectations of being beautiful and brilliant are huge and as anyone knows, don't last.

I dont fully get the point if this thread.

I always find this topic a bit difficult to discuss.

In a sexist society where women and girls are primarily valued for their looks, good looking women and girls will get more attention. That attention has upsides and downsides. And any advantages it brings are time limited.

There are also benefits to fading into the background a bit tbh. And maybe you get treated more like a person than an object? That has been suggested before on other threads like this.

If beautiful females have any advantages in patriarchal societies around the world then they are only ones that are ceded by men for their own interests.

I mean past the fact that both good looking men and women and boys and girls will be noticed complimented etc.

Racism is a big consideration in this as well- and also porn. Fashion. How the beauty standard changes...

The idea that good looking women and girls are privileged is, in the context of where we are now in society, an odd concept to me. Feels a bit divide and rule?

Not sure I've put that very well.

ovlovo

I've noticed the same thing. I think that there has been an increased emphasis on publishers etc looking for very attractive young women who can become brands on social media etc.

I somewhere read that increasingly younger people aren't doing much reading, they look at webcasts, listen to podcasts, audiobooks, and such. The writer needs to be able to sell to these visually oriented people.

I find that I get listened to more now that I'm older tbh.

Also note that a big proponent of the idea that women esp good looking ones have privilege, is the incel community.

[quote Tootletum]@Muserowl im not quite sure how I've offended you. Anyway sorry. I guess that's why I just have to smile and say how my life is great.[/quote]
Why on earth do you think you offended me. How did you read my post and come to that conclusion.

Glad you're life is great.

This is absolutely a thing and I've seen it in action. I was very much an ugly ducking and was pretty much ignored and picked on by the opposite sex who were far more interested in my pretty friend I then blossomed quite late (not into a stunner but def quite attractive) and I suddenly got a lot of attention and had a very different experience of the world as I suddenly felt seen and people in general were nicer to me, listened to me and opportunities seemed to open up for me. I am sure it was also partially improved confidence that went with it but it was a marked difference. I feel that my looks have been fading a bit over the last few years and I've def noticed a bit of a difference again. A patriarchal world has a lot more to offer you when you're attractive.

@Muserowl im not quite sure how I've offended you. Anyway sorry. I guess that's why I just have to smile and say how my life is great.

I'm really curious now to know who you are referring to but completely get why you haven't said.
If I've understood right OP, it's not just "does beauty come with privileges" it's "where are are the other authors?" Or "how come you only see the beautiful ones nowadays?" So I might think, where are the women with crooked teeth, wayward streaks of grey hair, unplucked eyebrows and one too big facial feature. So basically, where are the ones who look like me and my equally unglossy (but very lovely and intelligent) mates? It can't be that these authors don't exist so maybe they just don't get the photoshoots and big interviews or opinion pieces with their photo in the byline.

Ps, on behalf of ordinary attractive women, some men get far angrier with an ordinary woman who rejects them. Like they feel "how DARE you reject me?" but if a beatiful woman rejects them it doesnt trigger their narcissist rage.

You experience shows how you can be privileged and also disadvantaged for being a woman. It has al2ays been my experience that it was my biology that disadvantaged me. Being groped as well. Objectified. But also passed over for better looking women/ candidates. Pregnancy/ delivery/ breastfeeding/ responsibilities., all things that set a woman at a disadvantage.

Interesting that you have a friend who is "very unattractive".
Almost all of my friends fall in to the attractive to scrub up very attractive category"
Funny. We are all in a similar band. 🤔

I'm pretty sure it's a thing. But it's also not my fault. I have been told I am beautiful since I was about 7, which is creepy anyway. It opens doors, but of course also has many negatives. People objectify me (32Fs dont help), make assumptions, touch, grope etc. I dress very modestly to avoid the wrong impression, and when I was single I never let dates pay, again to avoid difficulties. They still dragged me into an alleyway in Mayfair, stuck their hands in my pants and their tongue down my throat.
Maybe that happens to everyone, but I wonder sometimes whether it also makes a difference to my own attitudes. I have a friend who , without wanting to be mean, is very unattractive. She is unbelievably into the whole TRA thing, thinks there is no problem with trans women in any female space, thinks saying they might commit crimes is ridiculous and self ID should be a right. I was with her for some of the rationale (don't tar trans women with criminals), but I honestly don't think she understands, because men have never done any of that to her. She has not seen just how many seemingly normal, nice people will try to overpower women.

This exists of course. Beauty privilege.

There are no laws in place to make sure that unattractive women get their fair share of the jobs. It's very unfair.

I also noticed when I was unemployed (well, a single parent on lone parent benefit) people wanted to help (ie, be the one who helped/was instrumental in that person's success) a very attractive times. A few times I remember my head spinning when people in my wider circle raced to help a woman in similar shoes to get a job or make a connection. I wasn't frustrated with the attractive woman to be clear. I was observing a psychological effect, bit like the horn effect I suppose.

People GET something out of helping somebody and it's less of a risk to help somebody who probably doesn't need the help that badly.

Help somebody who needs the break.

I thinks it’s just frustrating because of course you can understand why they want actresses or TV presenters to be attractive as it’s a visual medium (whether you agree with it or not). But for books, in which looks are not required for either the writing or reading of, to have to have a pretty author or to do lots of fashion-y Instagram posts to gain a following and sell well is just depressing. As previous posters said it’s not the women’s fault though.

Yes, beauty privilege exists. I remember it being called genetic lottery. Glad pp shared the statistics. It's a bit sad really. It kinds of reminds me, though, of this so called "ugly" fish on the david attenborough programme i saw once. I said to my husband, now if someone started a charity for that fish, I would donate. The look on his face just tells me that we have such a long way to go.

OP, I totally get where you're coming from and have wrestled with my own feelings about this too. I'm pretty sure I know which particular writer you have in mind - I saw the publicity shots and raised an eyebrow too.

I work in that industry and I know for a fact that looks are very much part of the branding package a publisher wants to sell. So, if you're in your 50s or 60s and have written a brilliant book, that's not to say you won't do well and get lots of exposure, but the opportunities will be more limited than for the 20/30something with the model figure, long blonde hair and conventionally gorgeous face. Magazine editors will be queueing up to commission her for features about anything and everything, from her relationship break up, to her niche food allergy to her favourite pair of shoes. All with a lovely plug for the book thrown in. Quite simply, it's an extra marketing angle that publicists can exploit (and they will.)

It irks me, though obviously the writers themselves are in no way to be blamed or shamed for playing the game. I guess part of what readers/consumers are buying is an illusion and a fantasy, the desire for which extends off the pages of the book and into real life.

I used to be considered attractive. I feel like it only brought negatives to my life. Some affected me very badly. I feel like a lot of this privilege stuff just gets used to pit people against each other anyway. We all have our problems and our advantages.

When my daughter was born because of my experiences, one thing I wished for her is that she would be average looking. Now I'm older and after a long battle with anorexia that has taken a toll on my appearance, I barely get looked at. I much prefer it that way and wish it had always been like that.

Meh, I kinda get what you mean.
I don’t really agree that there’s any power or privilege, and if there is it’s very fleeting.

It’s not real power is it, let face it.
It’s what men allow them to have.

When young attractive women are taking the top spots from men, then I’ll believe it.

It’s also interesting reading that while young poor white bits are the least successful academically,, they still have white privilege.

Now I always understood white privilege (well any privilege actually) as, if all other things are equal, it’s something that you are not being held back by, while others are.

In this case, I really can’t see how these boys have privilege by being white.
When compared by others of their ilk (young, male, poor) they are the ones who do the worst, so where is the privilege they are receiving, or what is it holding the others back, that is not holding them back?

I remember when I was at school, the lowest achievers were poor Afro-carribean boys.
There were educational initiatives put into place to counter this which clearly worked.

I can’t see how these poor white boys are privileged compared to the poor Afro Caribbean boys. Does their white privilege counteract or overcome the classism they’ll face? I’m not talking about the odd working class boy come good. This is where the intersectionality comes into play.
I think there are certain types of privilege that are seen to be as ‘higher value’ than others, which I think being white is probably up there at the top in certain eyes.

But if we look at cases like the girls in Rotherham, it can clearly be seen that white privilege means absolute nothing in the face of sexism and classism that the girls were a victim of.

I think privilege concepts should only be used in a societal level, I don’t think the concept of privilege should ever really be applied to individuals, as there’s so many conflicts.
I’m trying to organise my thoughts, so this might be a bit muddled, so I hope I’m making sense.

I feel the same about this scenario. Any beauty privilege doesn’t overcome or counteract the other disadvantages.

whether in our social media dominated world, beauty is becoming a commodity for female writers

Yes, it is. The game is set up this way. The whole of society is set up to generally reward women for beauty, and sometimes punish women for not conforming to certain visual standards.

It's subtle, too, because everyone (well, okay, most of us) want to look nice and take a good photograph for our author shot - we don't necessarily consider the wider implications of a hierarchy of attractiveness and how the picture might colour our publicist's approach and the marketing of our work and which publications might feature an interview if it includes a sultry head shot, etc.

And to be honest, I don't think we should play into this game by worrying too much about it. Be beautiful, be unexceptional, be ugly. Just get on with writing your best work and submitting it and improving. Others will have many advantages at different times - wealth, connections, education, trends & whims of the market - it's a marathon, not a sprint, in general. Pointless to watch league tables, just observe, consider, and pour it into the work.

I know an ex-model with plenty of insight into how women's beauty is used both for and against them - she is also an amazingly brave and intelligent writer. Her stories often explore lots of these issues, they are unnerving, perceptive, difficult and - well, beautiful.

So to answer your question - yes, there is beauty privilege, but I wouldn't let it bother you. Enjoy other people, celebrate other people's successes, focus on the work - eh, maybe write an essay/story/poem on the subject.

I think its old fashioned sexism too. Society still places a lot of a females value on what they are worth to men so something nice to look at, probably fertile. It doesnt mean you cant make progress if you arent attractive in that way or that they are only succesful brcause they are attractive, but they will have more 'value'and get pushed forward more.
There is also just general human attractiveness which confers benefits. We are supposed to be evenly featured and healthy looking.

In a sexist society, that primarily values women and girls for their looks, being naturally physically attractive is very much a double edged sword. In my opinion.

I object to the question which seems to be pandering to intelligence privilege.