Joe Biden issues new statement on the transgender debate

I don't think I'd say that nearly 100% of Trumps voters are white, 29% of the Hispanic vote went to him.

Though I think arguing who got the black vote or female vote is a pretty secondary issue. Everyone here knows Trumps limitations, and I don't think anyone is actually a Trump supporter. Most are making pragmatic arguments about the benefits and problems of another Trump administration vs a Biden one, which is hardly the same thing.

But I don't know that I've seen more than about three attempts to engage with the actual arguments being made about that. Like why would many Americans who have been utterly betrayed by continuously voting for Democrats continue to do so? Can you really argue they are making an economic error when the Democrats have carried on with Reaganism? What are the long term prospects the Democrats are offering? Not what they say, what they actually will do.

As Delpiniumium20 rightly says above there are many factors in job growth, but Trump's performance overall (before Covid) was average:
www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2020/02/donald-trump-vs-barack-obama-on-jobs-and-jobs-growth-under-other-presidents.html

The greatest number of job growth under any president was Clinton:
www.thebalance.com/job-creation-by-president-by-number-and-percent-3863218

I have friends ranged along different parts of the political spectrum who voted for Brexit (I very much did not) and I understood that they did it for a variety of reasons: business owners worried about red tape; wanting to return to a simpler time; a protest vote; concerns about farmers and fisherman, anti-globalists.... Most regret it or just don't speak about it (and I don't raise it.) They weren't trade experts so how could they know how it would turn out?

But after four years of Trump - people know what they are voting for and for my friend who is a disability activist , for example, that is understandably an absolute dealbreaker in terms of friendships. And I suppose it's hard to come back from having someone shout 'Lock her up' about you to then go on holiday together.

One of the things he mentions is that because the Democrats take the black vote for granted they really only have to pay lip service to those voters - they don't have to do anything concrete as they would if they thought they might actually defect. He suggests that if they were afraid of that they might have put their minds to creating better policies over the years.

democracyjournal.org/magazine/43/race-in-trumps-america/

Pre-COVID, the unemployment rate hit the lowest point in several decades. Black unemployment too, it should be said. Put paid to the ‘jobless recovery’ bullshit espoused earlier.

But that was the result of the upswing from the recession, brought in by Obama and inherited by Trump. Although, economists do argue that laying blame or gratitude solely on a president is myopic.

www.npr.org/2018/09/12/646708799/fact-check-who-gets-credit-for-the-booming-u-s-economy

I'm sure the "us vs them" is still raw after Brexit. I feel it in me and I see it in people I used to be able to disagree with...many people have lost friendships over this

It’s sad to lose friends over politics. I always felt inspired by the touching friendship between Scalia and RGB (for those familiar with the US Supreme Court). Their families were also really close and vacationed together and really, it would be nice if we could just leave politics at the door sometimes.

I know Democrats have better economic policies that will help those in poverty

What a joke. Clinton years saw massive numbers of factories move to Mexico under NAFTA (then onward to China). No one after them did a damn thing about it either, Repub or Dem.

That’s on them.

You forget that TPP was a big issue that Trump campaigned on in 2016. Righting the trade imbalance between the US and China was a big vote getter, because no other prominent politician has been interested in this very key issue, which has disproportionately harmed the Rust Belt (white and black communities both, I should add).

Before COVID, those back home perceived that things were economically better in terms of jobs and 401Ks, which is probably the biggest motivator for them (not that you asked).

there is no evidence Trump has improved the lives of poor white people in this country

Pre-COVID, the unemployment rate hit the lowest point in several decades. Black unemployment too, it should be said. Put paid to the ‘jobless recovery’ bullshit espoused earlier.

@Floisme @EdgeOfACoin oops. I hit send too soon. I was going to tag you both and say US divides over politics do seem to pull on cultural differences as a way to argue why we vote the way we do. I'm guilty of this and I'm sure my anger with some historically racist groups spills unfairly over into what could look like classism (not sure how I'd define that nor if I'm guilty of it).

While all cultures can use divides of regions, urban vs rural, and accents and race and even music to show in and out groups, I think the the biggest divide in the US is philosophical and there's an interesting book on it. www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7

I'm the product of late arrived middle to lower income Scandinavian immigrants and fall into the Yankeedom part of that group. The Civil War was over by the time my great grandparents got here, yet we are still impacted by it to this day...in one way by the privilege we get by being white.

I think some of that is different in the UK...but not sure. I can be snarky and argue that culturally, Trump falls into a "tacky, rich white celebrity" group and there are all income level people who don't want to be associated with that.

But more realistically, people who like Trump seem to focus loosely on "freedoms." I argue their theory of freedom is poorly defined and lacking accountability and oversight. This is a philosophical difference.

I think the nastiness also comes because of the fear of association with the tacky rich white guy, people who LOOK the same as Trump folks but are opposed to Trump want to say they aren't like him or his followers. As his followers are almost 100% white, leftist white people who don't want to act racist go out of their way to prove they aren't in this group, and it can seem unfair to those in the Trump group. Not sure how this fits into classism, but it's interesting.

I also think classism is different in the UK vs US. @

I can see that this thread shows that Brexit and the Tump issue are really not comparable and I think that can cause false analogy. However, I can recognize similar anger between sides and that is painful, I get that. Like some posters, I have family who voted for Trump. Just because I love them doesn't mean their vote didn't legitimatize policies that hurt poor people, Black people, Native people refugees at our borders. Additionally, half of those groups are women, yet unlike some PP assertions, there is no evidence people of color in the US are voting in larger blocks for Trump. Post our election, I will be happy to revisit this theory if I'm proved wrong.

But this is a very important fact: the main reason the Democratic primary veered to Biden (he was behind in the polls) was due the Black primary voters in S Carolina who voted almost overwhelmingly for Biden and this made a shift in the Democrats who dropped their 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc choices to vote Joe on Super Tuesday (our big primary Election Day). Biden was my 5th choice, but, like everyone else, I saw the way the wind was blowing that day and pulled my lever for him because that was the best strategy. Black people in this country led that shift. I know Democrats have better economic policies that will help those in poverty so in no way do I see my votes hurting low income folks in the Rust Belt or elsewhere...there is no evidence Trump has improved the lives of poor white people in this country.

I'd like to clarify again that the Whitmer kidnapper plotters are not leftist. I'm citing the AP, made up of thousands of local reporters around the world for those who (often rightly) trust local news. Our Michigan bureau FBI confirm they are not leftist. They are influenced by white supremacy and the so-called boogaloo movement and some from this group were on the steps of the Michigan capital months ago, holding weapons of war, threatening our democratic government.

apnews.com/article/08a7b6a93ed9e23154a724f376ae0a3c

apnews.com/article/46e0a8b30dd62d82f2a9845d2f5bea38

I don't understand how someone can paint Corbyn as racist and Boris as nice and normal.

www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

Boris outright racism is well known, and was well known at the election also.

I am FAR from a Corbyn fan (as posts will back up), but that post was..not representative of the truth at all. Its actually a bit odd that that argument was made tbh.

Corbyn/Boris was to most Americans I speak to..when compared to the American elections, a choice between left or far left. Biden V Trump, both would realistically be classed as far right here apparently. I know not much about American politics, I tend to defer to people who do know about it. I have read this thread with interest. But cannot really not post when its being made out Corbyn was some big bad nasty and Boris is all benign and smiles.

"I already posted what I think about it, that this is a good example of the horseshoe theory in politics where extremists at both ends have actually a lot of ideas in common."

But @UsedUpUsername you haven't said what you think about a President saying this on the eve of an election and whether you think this is an acceptable way for a politician to behave? Would you vote for a man who says this?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg, you quoted my post to make a point about the UK. Which I was not discussing.

The situations are different in crucial ways.

In the UK, at the last election, voters did NOT have a choice between a Trump-like candidate on the far right and a soft left candidate like Biden. They had a choice between a right wing candidate in Johnson who came across as jokey and a nice, normal guy (I'm not saying he is, but that's how he was seen - pre-Covid, his utter incompetence had not yet become apparent) versus Corbyn, who was the one who clearly came across as the extremist, racist, anti-democratic, incompetent loon.

And in the UK, the extremist, racist, anti-democratic, incompetent loon lost in a landslide.

As I've said previously, extremists whether right or left are very similar. Voters in the UK certainly are not big on racists (different story I agree in the US, where a sizeable proportion are actively racist), and no-one is big on incompetence, especially where lives are at stake.

I would count myself as soft left but there is no way I would ever have voted for Corbyn (you will doubtless be surprised to hear).

Maybe a better comparison is Johnson now - now that his incompetence has become more apparent - versus Starmer, another soft left candidate much closer to Biden. It may have escaped your notice, but Starmer has now overtaken Johnson in the polls here.

As I said above, I'm 99% sure that voices on this thread pretending to be pro-Trump feminists are doing this so they can screenshot and post it on Twitter.

MNetters tend to be soft left, though some soft right of centre. What they are not, and what is given very short shrift, is supporters of either blatant racists or of men who talk about "grabbing women by the pussy".

Anyone saying that MNetters are cool with this are lying.

I don't think the Whitmer kidnapper guys can offer any coherent political thought but are anti-government and anti- 'deep state.' I mean one of them offered this:
'A meme Caserta shared shows a man with his face obscured holding a rifle, with the caption "when you've smoked 3 commies before you can legally smoke cigarettes."
But what is undeniable is that the president has attacked and undermined the governor repeatedly at rallies and on Twitter, stoking this sort of violence. The 'lock her up' stuff makes me ill.

And if you are interested in one of many reasons why feminist prefer Biden to Trump, I give you his Violence Against Women Act which was passed over 20 years ago:

'Today, many experts credit VAWA with contributing to a dramatic decrease in the rate of domestic violence in the United States. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, the overall rate of intimate-partner violence dropped 64% from 1993 to 2010.

Lawyers who helped to draft the bill say that part of the reason the legislation has been so successful is that it has helped to create a profound cultural change, and has encouraged Americans to take gender-based violence seriously.'

If you are interested in reading more: time.com/5675029/violence-against-women-act-history-biden/

It sounds like you think the far left couldn't possibly be guilty of anything when the point is extremists of any stripe are wild cards that could stoop to anything.

Trump talks shit, that's well documented and condemned, and nobody but extremists are likely to listen. Good on the FBI for catching that Michigan crowd, of whatever extremist stripe they turn out to be.

The far left has plenty of rhetoric too, Punch A Nazi for one example, and they also portray exactly half the country as Nazis. That doesn't bode well either, does it? And theres been plenty of examples of violence during the unrest. Its ridiculous to say these committed political partisans are too pure and high minded to stoop to violence and it must all be outside agitators - but those committed political partisans are uniquely evil.

All of that should also be disowned by anyone who considers themselves centrist or moderate of whatever leaning.

So yeah, doing a bit of both sidesing here, but that's cause there actually are two sides to a horseshoe.

It's such a pity that media and social media has become so polarised.

I already posted what I think about it, that this is a good example of the horseshoe theory in politics where extremists at both ends have actually a lot of ideas in common.

As for the rally, I have no idea. But this meme that he unleashed a right-wing militia on Whitmer is demonstrably false.

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It's pretty clear that there is a group of people here on this board that is so obsessively focused on one issue, that they're willing to overlook everything else. I'd compare them to our white Christian evangelicals, ironically enough. American evangelicals continue to vote for the most despicable and un-Christian president ever because it's the only path they see to get abortion rights eliminated. Hypocrisy aside, they have a goal in mind and they're willing to make a pact with the devil to achieve it. It's no different here. Damn the lives, the health and reproductive rights of American women, so long as the trans don't get their way.

It's insane, disgusting and completely anti-feminist in nature. It isn't completely surprising though, humans can be extremely selfish.

This group is not going to put a dent in our elections. They don't have that kind of power.
We have the power with our votes.

Go vote, ladies, VOTE these fuckers out...and let's take the senate too, this time. Things are looking up. VOTE VOTE VOTE!

www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/02/07/radical-feminists-conservatives-transgender-rights/

You honestly believe the Militia is anti fascist @UsedUpUsername? Or that one of them attended at BLM rally in good faith?

How do you feel about Trump calling for Whitmer to be locked up? What crimes is she supposed to have committed?

It is not what he will do for women’s rights (which I expect will be precisely zero), it is also what he might do against women’s rights. We do not know much about his stance on trans. But we do know Biden’s and by redefining ‘woman’ Biden will destroy them.

I look at Trump's record on Women's Rights. After all, he's been in power for 4 years so what has he done to help women? How has he calmed the Trans debate?

I don't see much evidence of either. I do recall his behaviour over abortion rights.

Has Trump been asked about his plans for women and the trans community?

Excellent point Gingerscallop: But I predicted Trump's win and Brixteer win because of the sense of neglect I felt among left-behind towns. It wasn't all about race and migration. And I say that as a black African who felt humiliation in applying to come and live here with my partner of 15 years, having held a high level professional job in the Netherlands but being treated as a beggar here.
The quality of politicians who actually attempt to solve problems has declined dramatically. Conversely by calling the left behind racists, deplorable, uneducated it makes it easier to not actually do anything because you wouldn't want help racists now.
RE: The Dems and the African American vote, same way they took the workers in the rust belt for granted, a lot of Black people are questioning voting Dem. They are looking at other communities with better housing, schools, opportunities etc and wondering why after 50 years of voting Dem are their lives not improving.
The vote for us or you'll be lynched or as Biden said in 2012 “They’re going to put y’all back in chains.” fear is not working.

[quote DameFanny]It's a strange parallel universe in here where you can look at Trump setting his terrorists back on Gretchen Whitmer and think 'yes, he gets my sane, adult and considered vote'

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/trump-whitmer-michigan-militia-election-rally-b1114257.html[/quote]
One of the initial men arrested went on anti-Trump rants so don’t think this is correct.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.detroitnews.com/amp/5940296002

Another went to BLM rally to agitate against police violence. You can read an actual quote from the guy (Daniel Joseph Harris) here:

oaklandcounty115.com/2020/06/08/lake-orion-protest-affirms-black-lives-matter-movement/

Imo this is the horseshoe theory in action, where you get anti-government types from both ends wanting to cause trouble

You don’t seem to care about the actual reasons why someone would vote Trump. I have a whole family of them, and could tell you why if you even cared to know.

But you’d rather paint them as racist and throw out stereotypes of Southerners (and hey! My ancestors actually risked their lived to fight against slavery, since you brought it up).

Why would northern Democratic strongholds like MI, PA, WI, OH vote for Obama for both terms and then Trump? Must be racism 🙄

Or maybe there’s some other reason you are overlooking? Nah, can’t be. They just suddenly became racist in just four years ....

well i've just lost the first half of my morning to you fascinating women

This resonates with me because I think UK voters faced a very similar dilemma at the UK GE.

I had previously spoiled my vote at various ballots, but felt that the GE was too important for that. After a great deal of soul searching I voted conservative. I am a labour party member. But believe it or not I genuinely felt that the outcomes for marginalised people in the UK would be better under a conservative government than under a corbyn led labour one.

I've had cause to agonise over my decision many times since then. sometimes I think I was right, sometimes wrong.

But I blame the Labour party's complete dereliction of duty, of their founding principles for putting me in that position.

And equally, the people here saying things like Anyone who supports Trump is insane or deeply racist are just showing how Trump and the current god awful UK Tory administration gain power: by showing at least a passing familiarity with actual reality as lived by most people