You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

Just a note - I'm somewhat encouraged that this discussion, which started because of a man trying to inappropriately include males, is now focussing on females. It shouldn't be in the least noteworthy on a feminism board but often it doesn't turn out that way.

So a hypothetical transman would be distraught/stigmatised/whatever buying probiotics labelled "for women" but absolutely fine buying probiotics labelled "for your vagina". Really?

I dont even know why people think that any of these alterations of language on their products means they give a crap about you anyway.

I mean look at always . Told repeatedly by thousands if women that scented pads were causing rashes and infections and they didn't care. They also received hundreds if complaints about substandard products being sold in Africa and causing rashes etc not even sure if that's changed either. That's what they think of women. They don't care cos we have to buy it anyway but they will change the packaging to remove the venus symbol. Everyone celebrates them fir being "inclusive" but really it was just something cheap and easy to do. If they stopped thinking fir a secind that everything is about thembthey would realise that actually they didn't even do anything. Not anything that would improve the product or make it more accessible amd affordable and not cause you to suffer painful rashes.

if the word women being missing on a box for a vaginal health product offends you as a women, I think that’s more of an issue than the ‘issue’ itself.

It's really not about 'offence', from a feminist POV anyway. Is that really what you think it's about?

THANK YOU @VaginalMicrobiome !!! Thank you for the bluntness of your direct comment back to him. You would not have been the only person thinking that but many would have been on the back foot as to what to say! Thank god these idiots are being put back in their place.

Well done you!!

if the word women being missing on a box for a vaginal health product offends you as a women, I think that’s more of an issue than the ‘issue’ itself.

You can say exactly the same to people who don't think it should be there. Let them deal with their identity issues themselves and stop pandering to a tiny minority. Only female people have vaginas, however they identify.

Yes whateouldscullydo I find it weird that I & most other women must live in some parallel universe where we routinely buy products that say “for men” without a second thought

Ppl who work in shops couldn’t gaf what you’re buying - they sell things to hundreds of ppl everyday, they barely give you a glance or a thought.

There’s not a shop alarm signal that goes off when women buy products for men or men buy products for women

Do you know there are many many woman who don't know they have a cervix. Not using the word woman actually prevents women from knowing something is aimed at them.

Exactly. Similarly, the percentage of women who can correctly label a diagram of female genitalia is shockingly low. If the word women/ woman is used, they know that it is referring to them.

But this whole ‘putting off’ thing is a big problem, and it’s implications are constantly ignored. If someone finds their own biology off-putting, then they’re potentially putting their health at risk. How is ‘inclusive’ pandering actually helping them? Why has affirmation become so much more important than helping people accept their inescapable biological reality, while at the same time using language that is exclusionary to the vast majority?

I think women are important, definitely. So important I think the word isn’t necessary on a medical product because it could put off someone using it if they don’t identify as a women

Do you know there are many many woman who don't know they have a cervix. Not using the word woman actually prevents women from knowing something is aimed at them.

Its far more important those women know something is fir them than we pander to people who know they are female, know they need it but need to get over themselves and stop thinking anyones taking the blinder bit of notice what they are buying

I've bought "mens " products hundreds if times. No one cares.

And no, we won't give up our word to cover the arses of those spreading lies that leave them in danger. That makes us complicit. And we won't do that.

My issue with the "people with vaginas" language isn't that I find it dehumanising. It contains the word people or person after all. It's more de-sexing, isn't it? It's the fact that it makes the issues that women have general issues that "people" have. So people who give birth, people with cervices, people who have periods, people with vaginas. All those things are the reason women have been oppressed, treated as property, raped, banned from voting, etc. Suddenly these become general issues. Sex is written out, and if women don't have this anatomy, how do we talk about sexism?

I miss jj

In an ideal word none of this would be an issue @ MaudTheInvincible
I think all these labels are quite negative and contradictory.

I think women are important, definitely. So important I think the word isn’t necessary on a medical product because it could put off someone using it if they don’t identify as a women.

I’m rubbish at articulating my thoughts on all this- it’s hard to discuss this subject also without offending.

[quote Onadifferentuniverse]@Vermeil of course there’s shame attached otherwise people wouldn’t get these mutilating surgery’s to change what they have down below.[/quote]
That's why many of us have little objection to the addition of 'and transmen'. Who are the group the bright spark the OP responded to didn't think of at all.

No women will do just fine. The only ppl who need this are women as women are the only ppl who have vaginas no matter how they identify.

Neo vaginas are not the same at all

Why is it always women being asked to give up more & more?

Okay then, let’s have a little thought experiment.
We stop using the word woman because it upsets a small number of people. One of those people, who because everyone else has changed how they use words to help them feel comfortable rather than helping them deal with their biological reality, develops symptoms of cervical cancer. They found the idea of smear tests deeply upsetting because it reminds them they’re female. The thought that they might have a major gynae problem is even more upsetting, so they avoid getting any treatment until it’s too late.
How has changing wording and being affirmative, rather than helping them deal with the shame they feel about their biological reality, done them any favours?

Nice work op

Plenty of men buy their significant others and daughters tampons. Here's no stigma attached. Cashiers sell them hundreds of times a day they don't care either.

And why the hell should the word women not appear on products specifically fir women just because some people think anyone gives a crap what they are buying. No ones taking any notice. Its shopping.

Onadifferentuniverse You don't feel the word women is necessary and therefore don't feel it's desirable. I feel differently. I feel that by not using the word women here would be to contribute to the extant stigma around women and their bodies.

What is more, if someone who is a woman but has a gender identity which makes them uncomfortable with the sex class they belong to were to protest about the use of their sex class signifier, then they would be actively excluding and potentially harming other women such as those with learning difficulties or who have English as a secondary language who need clear language, instead of medicalised terms like vagina or cervix.

@ErrolTheDragon if the word women being missing on a box for a vaginal health product offends you as a women, I think that’s more of an issue than the ‘issue’ itself.
It’s not unhelpful to women, not every women has a vagina.

And taking away the word women actually protects ‘women’ who don’t identify as such.

• If someone has a vagina they should be entitled to buy a product of health for it. Same with a penis.*

Which they are. They shouldn't feel entitled to impose changes of language on the whole of the rest of society. It's clear in the case of the 'people with cervices' nonsense that using biological descriptors rather than normal accepted clear English is obfuscatory and unhelpful to women.

@gardenbird48 because the product they’re buying doesn’t conform to their identity, it must be awful to have to do this. Must be a constant reminder of their struggles.

Well if he's in marketing he could probably sell shit loads of your products to TW.

It sounds like the sort of product women don't want, but might need.
And the sort of product TW do want, but absolutely don't need.