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Original poster

You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

267 replies

VaginalMicrobiome · 13/10/2020 02:52

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

OP posts:
Cwenthryth · 13/10/2020 08:28

If this was a member of my team he’s have just marked his card as a misogynist and not very intelligent, in my opinion, impetuous youth or no! I don’t really appreciate impetuousness one my juniors Grin

His language is exclusionary in this instance anyway. No matter what their biological reality, clearly there are people with vaginas who don’t individually identify as women. Surely there’s a way to market a vaginal health product without having to get into identity politics though? Can’t we just talk about how to fix our itchy muffs without having to ponder how we feel about our inner selves as well?

I drive past an advert on the way to work at the moment for an Azera coffee can emblazoned with various permutations of the female and male symbols (biological symbols FFS!) mashed together in rainbow colours, emblazoned with “its not just coffee, it’s a statement of identity!”. Nah mate, it’s coffee, and no thanks.

Iheardarumour · 13/10/2020 08:15

I honestly think a lot of younger men have no idea how women's biology works. I keep hearing these stories and I wonder what they learned at school in their science lessons.

ChattyLion · 13/10/2020 08:09

Well done OP great work in all senses. Flowers

Igneococcus · 13/10/2020 08:08

There are quite a few probiotics available for vaginal dysbiosis including from the company I work for, unless the OP tells us in detail which strains of microbes the new product contain, I don't think there is anything commercially sensitive about her post.

LizzieSiddal · 13/10/2020 08:08

I’d be inclined to send this young man, and possibly everyone at that meeting, the info you found on neo- vaginas. There will be then no further questions/comments about neo vaginas being anything like an actual vagina.

Clymene · 13/10/2020 08:01

@highame

He was just a young guy, steeped in woke culture without fully understanding some of the implications, which is why he looked like an eejat. Impetuous youth and thinking he was smart. We've all done it, it's a signature of young people.
I haven't. It's a particularly male way to behave.
PegasusReturns · 13/10/2020 07:57

@VaginalMicrobiome I’m also concerned that your post is sufficiently commercially sensitive and outing to get you in difficulty if someone who knows you/with the time to do the research reports you.

Datun · 13/10/2020 07:56

This kind of proves the OPs point though as it shows how misogymist all this wokeness is. The marketing person's first thought on inclusivity was to include men who identify as women, without even considering transmen who will actually benefit from the product as they have vaginas.

This.

He instinctively wants to centre men who identify as women but forgot to use the right group - women who identify as men - in order to do it.

RationalOne · 13/10/2020 07:53

He was a prick. You pointed out the obvious flaw in his comment. He was trying to be 'woke'. He was also trying to centre this around men.

Your presentation was about something that affect only individuals born as women. A manufactured vagina is just that a manufactured vagina and will not behave the same way as one from nature.

Well done you.

user1495884620 · 13/10/2020 07:53

@DimidDavilby

I think if you're concerned about inclusivity it's trans men you need to think of. So it's women, and others with vaginas. HTH.
This kind of proves the OPs point though as it shows how misogymist all this wokeness is. The marketing person's first thought on inclusivity was to include men who identify as women, without even considering transmen who will actually benefit from the product as they have vaginas.
highame · 13/10/2020 07:48

He was just a young guy, steeped in woke culture without fully understanding some of the implications, which is why he looked like an eejat. Impetuous youth and thinking he was smart. We've all done it, it's a signature of young people.

PegasusReturns · 13/10/2020 07:46

This raises the interesting question around marketing and the spc.

Presumably your drug will be licensed for use on women. Not making that abundantly clear, or even implying that it is suitable for those who aren’t women, would be a breach of MHRA and FDA Law.

Self identification has not yet been tested as a concept in regulatory/marketing law because no legal/compliance team would be insane enough to sanction such an approach.

Datun · 13/10/2020 07:42

The whole issue is that the word women must be uncoupled from their biology in order that that the word isn't dependent on it.

TRAs are very clear that the word (and concept) of woman is a gender identify. Nothing to do with biology, otherwise male born individuals can't be one.

This is coming from males not females. Some identity as women, and there are others who don't, but just hate women. Like your marketing twit.

This man's 'and those who identify as women' shows he hasn't quite received the right memo tho. He should have said 'men have vagjnas too, so you can't talk about women. You must talk about 'people with vagjnas'.

Thereby forcing the decoupling of women with their biology.

My worry would be that he reads the right memo as soon as he can and gets back to you to try again.

Cwenthryth · 13/10/2020 07:41

@EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus

Great work.

As for your colleague, I think ‘women and those identifying as women’ apart from being wrong for your product, would just have pissed transwomen off anyway because it would make it clear they were actually men.

Absolutely! This idiot clearly doesn’t even understand the basics of the issue and what TWAW means, and thinks he can educate you! His suggested phrasing is acceptable to no one, and does not even describe the full potential target market accurately in genderspeak. What a loser.

I tell you what would be nice - if the marketing and packaging for the product was completely ungendered. No pink, no flowers, no language talking about nurturing or gentle etc. Just straightforward language, and a calm/colourful design.

SpilltheTea · 13/10/2020 07:41

I hope he felt like the dumbass he is. I think transwomen would know this product isn't relevant to them.

StandWithYou · 13/10/2020 07:39

Thank you so much! It needs calling out each and every time.

SunniCameHomeWithAVengeance · 13/10/2020 07:33

I think if he doesn't know what a vagina is he really should still be in school.

DrDavidBanner · 13/10/2020 07:30

What an idiot😂. I don't think your response was too strong, I think it was just right. I hope he had the good grace to feel embarrassed. As pp have said he clearly didn't have the first clue what he was talking about. Even the most "passing" transwoman would not need this as much as a transman would. But that's another conversation.

TikTakTikTak · 13/10/2020 07:29

I wouldn't buy a product for women from a company who tried to be woke. Using the word woman ensures that I will actually consider it.
Here's hoping it works, I get BV after every period.

FannyCann · 13/10/2020 07:14

*neo-vagina I meant, not new vagina. 😳

Trixie18 · 13/10/2020 07:13

What a prat but you handled it and put him in his place!
Also can you give us a heads up when this product is launched, sounds great 😁

FannyCann · 13/10/2020 06:52

Don't know if the research into new-vaginal health turned up this study OP but here it is for anyone interested.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695466/

CircleofWillis · 13/10/2020 06:52

@Rainallnight

OP, I agree with all you’ve said, but I’m a bit worried for you that your post is so outing, and might have commercially sensitive info in it.
Thank you for posting but I agree with this.
ShagMeRiggins · 13/10/2020 06:49

You were right to point it out and—separately—how can I get my hands on this product?

Collidascope · 13/10/2020 06:49

@Mummyoflittledragon

I think you did really well. Had he commented about transmen, then you would have had more of an issue to address. As is, he outed himself as a misogynist with the TWAW line. These types are all the same. Females, who now identify as trans don’t cross their radar and he mansplain all whilst not having a clue what he was talking about. If a manager feeds anything back to you, you can now 100% back up your words having researched the biological colonisation of a neo vagina.
Yeah, this. Talk of vaginas, and Mr Wokery (like Daniel Radcliffe before him) decides to ignore trans men and just focus on trans women being women. Can't help themselves, can they?
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