Page 4 | Julie Bindel - article on allies

Goosefoot · 2020-10-12T11:36:59+00:00

Thought people might be interested in discussing this: [https://unherd.com/2020/10/feminisms-dangerous-new-allies/]] We've talked about this a lot here - I'm not sure Bindel has really said anything as worthwhile or interesting as lot of the regular posters here have, it seems a little one dimensional to me. Maybe because she's really stuck on the left-good right-bad thinking and doesn't really consider whether there has been a change within those categories at all, or why the left has struggled with certain problems. It seems to me she sees it as almost random, and if we just take out the TRA stuff things can go back to normal.

xxyzz · 14/10/2020 01:22

Goosefoot, you may for reasons I don't really understand struggle to differentiate between a conspiracy theorist - on the far right or far left - and someone like Posie Parker, who may chat to people on the right, who may be a bit blunt in her speech and who is generally a bit Marmite.

But I don't think many people would argue, as bizarrely you appear to do here, that anyone is actually calling her a Nazi. Even Julie Bindel, for all her dislike of Posie, is suggesting nothing as ridiculous as this.

I'm also really quite tired of your repeated sarky suggestions that the idea that anti-Semitism underlies many conspiracy theories is itself a conspiracy theory. It's not 'ironic' to suggest that, it's not 'darkly funny', it's simply ignorant and racist.

I had said above I hadn't come across anti-Semitism on FWR before (on MN, yes, but on FWR, no), but your posts are making me rethink that.

Well done you.

I look forward to your next bullshit post telling me I am trying to 'silence' you by pointing out your racism, a la Laurence Fox.

In reality, I have no desire to 'cancel' you or 'silence' you and indeed I am quite happy to stand by you on any feminist barricades even if you are a racist provocateur. With a rather poor 'sense of humour'.

NRatched · 14/10/2020 00:28

GrinitchSpinach

Thanks for your very detailed and relevant posts on here too. Its always interesting to get the opinion of someone who is actually from US, on matters concerning the US. Its so different than here, politics wise. I realy must start researching a bit more as I know not much at all about US politics. Seems a bit of a minefield! And sadly, from what I have read, with not much choice at all

NRatched · 14/10/2020 00:24

In the past few years, there has been an increase of like..2500% at least children thinking they are trans, and thats only the ones who are referred for treatment.

How one can argue about increased numbers of gay kids meaning its unlikely homophobia causes kids to claim to be trans is..weird.

Whole thread is weird, they way its gone anyway. Not bothered about stuff going offtopic, but the way its gone in particular has been really really strange. Even compared to usual!

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 23:12

@OldCrone

It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

And yet you can't see that now it could so easily work the other way.

There are more young people identifying as gay, lesbian or bisexual than at any point in the UK's history. That doesn't point to an environment where increased homophobia is causing kids to want to be trans.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 13/10/2020 23:03

As we now know, just 161 under 18s were given medical treatment following attending the Tavistock last year.

I think the Tavi needs far more money to see kids quicker, to treat co-morbid conditions and support family so that we get as close as possible to no kids needing medical transition- it's not something we should ever wish on people if it can be avoided.

That said I'm vastly more concerned by the kids who don't get to the Tavi. The ones who order blockers or hormones online. The ones who socially transition without it being part of a treatment plan. I'm sick of having kids tell me that they can just take some pills to become the opposite sex without any clue about the consequences. I'm sick of being told we just have to affirm 'choices' of very vulnerable kids because some twonk counsellor went on a course and now think they understand GD well enough to diagnose and treat it- you wouldn't try that with schizophrenia so why do it with GD?

@jj1968 I'm sure there are plenty of conspiracy theorists jumping on the bandwagon now but most of us are here because we've experienced stuff which isn't right and have not been able to help.

The fact that the feminism board focuses on the harm to women and children doesn't mean that we don't all have empathy with trans people.

I know it's hard to understand for people who havent experienced gender dysphoria but it is.

I'm certainly not going to pretend to understand GD, nor was I trying to suggest it's some simple case of just being gay.

I was saying that in my (second hand, limited) experience homophobia and strict gender roles are often the backdrop when young people decide to transition.

OldCrone · 13/10/2020 23:01

It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

And yet you can't see that now it could so easily work the other way.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:54

@raddledoldmisanthropist

Growing up with gender dysphoria in the 80s part of me really wanted to be gay. As much as in the environment I grew up in being gay was abhorrent, at least it was a thing, a community that was liberating itself. In my teens I went to gay male venues, and although I ended up bisexual I realised that I wasn;t like them. That wasn't what was 'wrong' with me, they didn't want to be girls at all and tbh when I tried to gently broach the subject it was clear the gay scene was pretty hostile to the idea of trans people. They didn't see us as men. It took me three decades to accept I was trans and longer to tell anyone else about it. I often wonder if those bars on Compton Street had been more accepting of trans people whether I would have found it easier to come out sooner.

I've spoken to lots of trans people who grew up around that time. They have similar stories, as well as those who were brave enough to come out being asked repeatedly are you sure you're not just gay, wouldnt you rather just be gay. It's a different thing, I know it's hard to understand for people who havent experienced gender dysphoria but it is.

Anyway thats my last post on the subject before everyone gets on my case for derailting.

Winesalot · 13/10/2020 22:50

There should be studies into the effect that parental views of gender and sexuality on GD.

I think that most regular posters on these boards would agree that more research is imperative now that we have been told it will be done (although where did the research into the rapid increase in cases previously agreed to go???). I expect that there will be a confirmation that many of the teenage females will be lesbians and many will be autistic. Because that anecdotal evidence that has been reported (and dismissed) has been reported in the UK, the USA and in Australia by very different organizations/people. And I suspect that even if the evidence is robust here in the UK, there will be people who will still seek to discredit it because it won’t sit well with their view of the world. We have seen it with women’s sports and children’s treatments will be the same I suspect.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:45

That said, I am surprised that no-one on this thread has acknowledged that for people like Julie (lesbian) and me (Jewish), it's not about ideological purity, primarily, it's about safety.

I think this is key and pertinent to this thread. From a trans perspective (which I know you're all itching to hear) these are groups that would see us at best discriminated against and at worst incarcerated, put into camps or executed at the more extreme end of the religious spectrum. Often GC people insist they are not personally transphobic and support trans human rights. Well these groups don't, they think we are an abomination in front of God and should not exist, so when GC people align with them then it makes it very difficult to trust those who claim not to be transphobic. And let's not forget they think the same about LGB people, even if they are prepared to swallow their tongues in the name of attacking trans rights.

I oppose the occupation of Palestine. But I would never enter an allegiance with either Nazis or Islamic fundamentalists against the Israeli government to support that aim. Because I'm not antisemetic and those groups are. It undermines any claims that GC groups make that they are not transphobic if they stand shoulder to shoulder against trans people with those whose aim is the social eradication of trans people in whatever form that takes.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 13/10/2020 22:33

I'd want more evidence than an anecdote I'm afraid

I agree. There should be studies into the effect that parental views of gender and sexuality on GD. Until then all we really have is anecdotal evidence (which is a far from uncommon situation in social sciences). I have no clue about the joke you think started this idea- my own view comes from personal experience.

I don't think a trans family member would have felt anything like the same pressure to transition if her parents had been anything like as accepting of her (then his) being gay as they were when she decided to transition.

I've been involved professionally with one case where parental homophobia seemed to be a very strong factor and in every other case I'm familiar with it has been present to some degree.

OldCrone · 13/10/2020 22:31

All these people going OMG I was gender non conforming, I'd have been transed if I was young today are clearly incorrect.

Some of them would. though. And the links were about gay men. I didn't mention gender non conforming. Can you at least try to read what people have actually written before replying.

Original poster

Goosefoot · 13/10/2020 22:30

@xxyzz

Goosefoot, to be precise what you said was:

It's so interesting that conspiracy theories in general are now being pushed as moral wrongthink. If that link is made successfully in the minds of the public it will be a very powerful tool to silence disparate views. It's akin IMO to the recent overt attempt to link TRA positions with CRT and anti-racism.

and

Here is something funny - the theory that all conspiracy theories are anti-Jewish is itself a conspiracy theory!

Well, to those of us who are Jewish, there is nothing remotely "funny" about the reality that, yes, a lot of (no-one said "all") conspiracy theories are anti-Semitic.

If you are unaware of that, I wouldn't regard you as guilty of moral wrongthink, but I would regard you as a bit ignorant, as it's pretty widely known. I'd also regard the attempts at humour at the expense of my safety as pretty poor taste and a little bit racist, certainly.

I think you were trying, badly, to say that conspiracy theories aren't always wrong and we shouldn't rule out everything labelled as a conspiracy, as some of them might turn out to be right, which few people could disagree with. But you conveniently ignore that some conspiracy theories (not all) are viewed as moral wrongthink because they are er...immoral. So a belief that Princess Di was murdered is probably not going to harm anyone. But believing that the families of those who died in Sandy Hook are really actors and harrassing them, or believing in Pizzagate, or believing that Jews are secretly conspiring white genocide etc - all these do indeed deserve "moral" condemnation, because they are all incredibly harmful, hurtful and dangerous to those deemed to be plotting these conspiracies.

There is a far greater danger to those threatened by the nutty conspiracy theorists than there some vague danger to the majority who you claim are threatened of being labelled for spurious "moral wrongthink".

What is happening in this thread and elsewhere, is that people in interested in having reasons to dismiss or cancel certain viewpoints are creating a new set of associations to assist with that.

You can dismiss such people on a number of grounds already, transphobia, racism, bigotry, anti-semitism. All without requiring much or any attempt to really consider if what they are saying meets the charge, the whiff is often enough to place them outside of mainstream acceptability on the left. Some of them are becoming a little less effective, having been so overused.

The idea here though is to associate conspiracy theories - which exist about a myriad of topics - as a class, with Naziism, and anti-Jewish sentiment, to the point that when someone is accused of being a conspiracy theorist, or in bed with such people, or at least not hating them, that the feeling is "this person is likely a Nazi sympathiser."

That opens up a whole new avenue for making people untouchable or consigning them to the alt-right. You don't have to show they ever have thought il of a single person or group, only that at some point, they entertained what might pass for a conspiracy theory. Does POsie Parer think the moon landing was faked? Did she appear on a platform where a moon landing conspiracist has also appeared? Or where someone has talked about their weird speculations about Covid? Well, we know what that means, she's a Nazi and whatever she says is Beyond the Pale. We don't need to say it out loud though.

As for the irony of making a conspiracy theory while denigrating those who have conspiracy theories - I don't think the fact that they can be serious or have serious consequences is really relevant. It's ironic in the true sense of the term and many people find irony funny, albeit in a dark sort of way at times.

OP posts:

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:27

@OldCrone

I've never seen it but theres a difference between religious parents accepting a trans child because they love them, as they might an LGB child and actively attempting to turn an LGB child trans.

What is a 'trans child'?

A child that meets the diagnostic threshold for gender dysphoria and sees themselves as a different sex or gender to that recorded at birth. Will that do, And can we stop this derail because I'll get blamed. I'm happy to discuss trans kids on another thread at some point.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:25

@OldCrone

As we now know, just 161 under 18s were given medical treatment following attending the Tavistock last year. That's less than one in 100,000 children. All these people going OMG I was gender non conforming, I'd have been transed if I was young today are clearly incorrect.

OldCrone · 13/10/2020 22:23

I've never seen it but theres a difference between religious parents accepting a trans child because they love them, as they might an LGB child and actively attempting to turn an LGB child trans.

What is a 'trans child'?

raddledoldmisanthropist · 13/10/2020 22:21

That said, I am surprised that no-one on this thread has acknowledged that for people like Julie (lesbian) and me (Jewish), it's not about ideological purity, primarily, it's about safety.

Maybe if you're a straight white woman who is not a member of any minority group, you can hang out with the far right on sites that promote the Nazis and think 'the end justifies the means'. Or even 'Ooh, aren't I a rebel,' or 'This is a bit of a laugh'.

This. A quick watch of Brand New Tube's promotional video and a browse of who is on there is enough to see that their purpose is promoting anti-Semitism, Islamophobia (which is greedy, just pick one), Anti-vaxx and Lizard-people phobia.

It's plenty to make me run a mile from Sonia Poulton, be wary of Stephanie Davies-Arai (who is usually fab) and be irritated at transgender trend.

This is not a right-left thing. We should work with anyone in the spectrum of democratic politics. This lot are waaaaay past the line.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:21

@ValancyRedfern

If I recall correctly the parents of the trans child in the Netflix show Babysitters Club(??) are what you might call religious right.

I've never seen it but theres a difference between religious parents accepting a trans child because they love them, as they might an LGB child and actively attempting to turn an LGB child trans. Social transition and limited trans healthcare for kids has been happening in the US since the 1990s. I've yet to hear of one LGB person claim their parents attempted to make them trans or one trans person who claims they were coerced into being trans because of homophobic parents. Until those people exist, in numbers, then in no way could it be argued there is evidence that this is normal or typical behaviour in Evangelical families.

OldCrone · 13/10/2020 22:17

I'm sorry but this is exactly the kind of conspiratorial type thinking that has been under discussion. This entire claim comes from a comment made by an anonymous clinician published in a right wing newspaper and a joke a parent is reported to have made. And it's turned into key plank of GC ideology, that homophobic parents are transing kids and that Evangelicals would prefer a trans child to a gay one despite there not being one single verified example of this happening anywhere and it being utterly counter-intuitive, it is religious people who have led the charge against trans people. It's exactly what conspiracy theorists do, build an entire narrative that (to them) feels right based on no real evidence at all.

Isn't that a conspiracy theory though? You are building a narrative which feels right to you, that there is a 'GC ideology' which suggests that homophobic parents are transing their gay kids, and that this couldn't possibly be true because... what? Because there are no homophobic parents? Because those homophobic parents would never think it was better to trans their child than suffer the shame of having a gay child? Do you really think that? Or are you just concocting a conspiracy theory about what you like to call 'GC ideology'?

Who is really the conspiracy theorist here?

Trans as gay conversion could also come from children being confused about their sexuality and not fitting in with others of the same sex. Here's what a couple of gay men have said about this:

If someone had told me as a child that I could actually be a little girl, I would have jumped at the chance. Anything to escape the pressure cooker of an active boyhood crammed full of sports and rough play.

quillette.com/2019/01/31/homophobia-and-the-modern-trans-movement/

“I really wanted to be a girl. Thank God the world of now wasn’t then, because I’d be on hormones and I’d be a woman. After I was 15 I never wanted to be a woman again.”

www.theguardian.com/film/2016/jun/19/rupert-everett-dangers-of-child-sex-change-operations-gender

ValancyRedfern · 13/10/2020 22:12

If I recall correctly the parents of the trans child in the Netflix show Babysitters Club(??) are what you might call religious right.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:10

@BlackWaveComing

I saw it with my own eyes, heard my kids psych ( secular, not GC, heads a GI clinic at a major pediatric clinic) with my own ears, have read multiple accounts of transitioned children where the fear a hold was gay was relieved by 'wrong body's narrative.

My own child, diagnosed with GD, say he finds it hard to work out how much of it is fear of being gay. And thats a kid raised in a non-homophobic family with gay siblings!

You can't whisper feminists with concerns about increasing homophobia over to Pink News level discourse, just because we won't stand for Poulton's nonsense.

Again rumours, speculation, no evidence. I'm sorry @BlackWaveComing, I've had a lot of respect for your other posts on this thread, but perhaps read up on Leelah Alcorn and you might see why this touches a nerve a bit for trans people: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Leelah_Alcorn

Butterer · 13/10/2020 22:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 22:06

@BlackWaveComing

I'd want more evidence than an anecdote I'm afraid that this is in any way commonplace in Evangelical circles or even Catholic ones given the Catholic Church's vocal opposition to trans people. Perhaps it's happened once or twice, I don't know, I've never seen any clear evidence for it, other than rumours but even if so isolated examples hardly reveals a trend. If you really think the Baptist Belt Republicans who've spent the last decades desperately fighting for bathroom bills and to curtail trans rights would really rather have a trans kid than a gay one I don't really know what to say.

BlackWaveComing · 13/10/2020 22:05

I saw it with my own eyes, heard my kids psych ( secular, not GC, heads a GI clinic at a major pediatric clinic) with my own ears, have read multiple accounts of transitioned children where the fear a hold was gay was relieved by 'wrong body's narrative.

My own child, diagnosed with GD, say he finds it hard to work out how much of it is fear of being gay. And thats a kid raised in a non-homophobic family with gay siblings!

You can't whisper feminists with concerns about increasing homophobia over to Pink News level discourse, just because we won't stand for Poulton's nonsense.

jj1968 · 13/10/2020 21:58

[quote OldCrone]just look at the horrors they have put lesbian, gay and trans kids through in conversion therapy camps.

But you can make a gay or lesbian child straight by transing them. There's no doubt that homophobia is why some parents take their children to gender clinics.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2[/quote]
There is doubt. I'm sorry but this is exactly the kind of conspiratorial type thinking that has been under discussion. This entire claim comes from a comment made by an anonymous clinician published in a right wing newspaper and a joke a parent is reported to have made. And it's turned into key plank of GC ideology, that homophobic parents are transing kids and that Evangelicals would prefer a trans child to a gay one despite there not being one single verified example of this happening anywhere and it being utterly counter-intuitive, it is religious people who have led the charge against trans people. It's exactly what conspiracy theorists do, build an entire narrative that (to them) feels right based on no real evidence at all.

BlackWaveComing · 13/10/2020 21:58

And yeah, I'm not clicking on Pink News. Woman-hating propaganda,would not trust as far as I could throw.