Julie Bindel - article on allies

Has anyone said that? I don't think so.

It's the logical endpoint of the claim the far left are as bad as the far right surely. If that is the case then those women of the far left are as bad as the Fascists and Nazis of the far right surely?

Has anyone said that? I don't think so.

Yeah, I'm confused too. JJ did you misunderstand my point about communism (the political system responsible the deaths of tens of millions of which suppression of minorities is an intrinsic part) as relating to Marxist philosophy (the highly influential ideas which have spawned countless left wing movements)?

No-one ever said it would happen overnight. It was about incremental change backed by the electorate, that was kind of the point about Fabian Socialism.

It's completely naive in my view. As a truly great radical left activist and thinker Lucy Parsons said, "Never be deceived that the rich will permit you to vote away their wealth".

I don't have a great deal of time for de Beauvoir- she declared herself a Marxist didn't she? It's a bit like Ash Sarkar or Sally Rooney doing the same - all safe in the knowledge they will never actually have to live in a Marxist state and showing no particular willingness to give up the comforts capitalism gives them.

The Labour Party had problems with Clause 4 almost from its inception.

Gaitskill wanted it removed in 1955 following poor election results. There was obviously nationalisation of some industries but nothing remotely resembling the "abolition of capitalism". There was never any implementation by Labour of a policy of abolishing capitalism.

To be honest if there are people in gender critical circles who consider those such as Simone De Beauvoir, Andrea Dworking, Shulasmith Firestone and Selma James to be extremists who are comparable with Nazis and Fascists then I'm not surprised Julie Bindel is worried.

Just catching up now

which is surely why our thinking, analysis and political conclusions should be based on credible evidence and not a hunch, or a feeling

Couldn't help quoting that bit.

Yes, I agree. I'm certain there are some absolute nutters in BLM, Extinction rebellion, Momentum etc who do want that. I just can't see how anyone can think it's a mainstream view and I don't think the bulk of people who support those groups can really think that.

The abolishment of capitalism, as an end goal pursued by democratic means, was Labour Party policy until the removal of Clause IV in 1995. Millions of people voted for it, enough to form a government on several occassions. Is is a sign of how far to the right politics has shifted that this is now considered extremist.

Well that's quite a qualification and I think I'd need to hear those who espouse the abolition of capitalism (such as BLM) to say themselves what they mean by it (before I avoid them like the plague)

Yes, I agree. I'm certain there are some absolute nutters in BLM, Extinction rebellion, Momentum etc who do want that. I just can't see how anyone can think it's a mainstream view and I don't think the bulk of people who support those groups can really think that.

Some just won't have interrogated the ideas espoused beyond 'racism/global warming/poverty is bad. Some will see those movements as a broad coalition to achieve a particular goal.

I just still can't see that most of the people who say 'overthrowing capitalism is a mainstream political view' really mean that in the way it sounds. I think they mean establishing something more akin to German or Swedish Social Democracy, though I admit that is speculation.

The left has braodly tried to learn from the terrible mistakes made in it's name

Really? Who do you have in mind? The lunatic in Venezuela? Corbyn is a fan.

If you look at her policies on her website she's fairly centrist by the UK's standards.

Oh dear. You really have no clue about the situation in Portland, do you?

Spare me the reply. You are clearly not interested in listening to opinions other than your own very deluded ones.

but you won't find many defenders of Stalin or Mao in far left wing circles

Oh ha, ha.

I take it you haven't heard of John McDonnell then? The worst Chancellor the UK would ever have had who openly flaunted his own copy of Mao's Little Red Book in the House of Commons.

[quote jj1968]@OvaHere I think she's rather foolish for doing that but she's hardly a Stalinist and neither could she be characterised as far left, although obviously that's how her opponents will seek to present her. If you look at her policies on her website she's fairly centrist by the UK's standards.[/quote]
Foolish? She's a complete idiot and that's being kind to her.

What she is wearing is as vile, crass, indefensible and lacking in any sensitivity. I almost hope she is a Trump 5th columnist as that is the only way such stupidity would make sense.

Even supposedly left wing countries such as The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland unquestionably operate a capitalist system, albeit with certain controls on the free market. That does not make them "socialist" (which frankly is a meaningless term anyway beyond being used to sound less scary than Communism - although its users seem oblivious to what the "S" in USSR stood for)

I think she's rather foolish for doing that but she's hardly a Stalinist

But that's part of why I think you are wrong about the left's propensity to learn from it's mistakes. You wouldn't get even the most rabid Republican candidate in a Hitler/Pinochet/Mussolini skirt, yet Stalin and Mao each murdered more than all three of them put together.

@OvaHere I think she's rather foolish for doing that but she's hardly a Stalinist and neither could she be characterised as far left, although obviously that's how her opponents will seek to present her. If you look at her policies on her website she's fairly centrist by the UK's standards.

The left has indeed lost its way at times historically in the worst possible ways but you won't find many defenders of Stalin or Mao in far left wing circles beyond a few extreme sects.

I'm not so sure about that. This was a Portland Mayoral candidate a few days ago.
nypost.com/2020/10/08/photo-shows-portland-mayoral-candidate-wearing-communist-themed-skirt/

The left and right have both had plenty of monsters, along with millions of decent honourable people who tried to make the world better.

Hmm, we were talking specifically about what is considered far left/right rather than those closer to the centre. I think there are many many people who have what are regarded as far left beliefs who have done a great deal of good in the world and to whom we owe a significant debt. I don't think you can say that about the far right.

To suggest that people like Dworkin or Angela Davies, both of whom would be regarded to be as far left as they come are in any way comparable to Josef Goebbels or even Tommy Robinson is completely without foundation

I think there is a lot of lumping together there. Dworkin and Davies are not the left-wing equivalent of Robinson or Goebbels. I think you've even managed to be a little harsh on Tommy Robinson (never thought I'd say that!).

The left wing equivalent of Goebbels is Molotov or Mao or Guevara, all of whom did terrible things.

I agree that anti-Semitism is often more intrinsic to far-right ideologies and often something of a side-hussle for left-wing nutters but any totalitarian is equally a threat to all disadvantaged minorities.

The left and right have both had plenty of monsters, along with millions of decent honourable people who tried to make the world better.

Trying to paint such broad groupings as intrinsically better or worse is as daft as those who think a particular ethnicity/religion/nation/sexuality/skin colour are the cause off all the world's ills. Context is king.

People are just people. Loads of Genderists are probably lovely. Just wrong :-)

Hmm I'm now wondering whether it was the right thing to drag another poster into this thread when they haven't chosen to get involved? So I've reported my own post - I'll let MNHQ decide.

But I also very much object to the oft repeated notion that the far left are as bad or the same as the far right. The left has indeed lost its way at times historically in the worst possible ways but you won't find many defenders of Stalin or Mao in far left wing circles beyond a few extreme sects. You'd find plenty of defender of Hitler, Mussolini and Franco on the far right. The left has braodly tried to learn from the terrible mistakes made in it's name, the far right celebrates the tyrannies they created.

To suggest that people like Dworkin or Angela Davies, both of whom would be regarded to be as far left as they come are in any way comparable to Josef Goebbels or even Tommy Robinson is completely without foundation and I would argue an insult to the many people on the left who have fought and died to defend against tyranny and build a better world and without whom we would probably wouldn't even have an NHS.

she's done more for women/lesbians/humanity than I ever will,

Or me. I absolutely love JB but she's not our leader, and even if she were, I think we should still be able to say so if we think she's talking shite.

Maybe you're right and there isn't anything new to say about it, but I always feel a bit deflated whenever it happens, even though I know we don't all have to get on yada yada yada.

The other thing is that I've only ever known this kind of criticism come in one direction. I've seen Kate Scottow refer to Julie and her like minded Twitter friends as 'the head girls', which always makes me chortle - but hey, that's me and it does feel apt at times.

I knew I'd get blamed for the derail.

I contributed too- sorry. I honestly don't know what more there is to say about Julie's position, she's really clear about where she stands.

To some this is tribalist and shortsighted, to others it a sensible avoidance of any apparent connection with those who stand against women's rights and equality in general.

I frequently think she's wrong but she's done more for women/lesbians/humanity than I ever will, so she's earned the right to be.

For me the abolition of capitalism is "far left" and a very extreme position. I'm surprised that anyone would or could think otherwise.

I presume that some of the people who say this as if it's a mainstream view don't really mean the seizure of all private capital and the establishment of a command economy by a totalitarian state.

Communism (the political system, not the vague theoretical utopia that Marx never really defined) has killed more people than any other ideology in history. Saying you are a communist is little different from saying you are a Nazi.

Thinking collective goods like schools hospitals and police do not function well in a market is just good economics. There are lots of ways you can deal with that issue but capitalist socialism has worked well in many countries and is a perfectly reasonable political position.