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Julie Bindel - article on allies

259 replies

Goosefoot · 12/10/2020 12:36

Thought people might be interested in discussing this:

[https://unherd.com/2020/10/feminisms-dangerous-new-allies/]]

We've talked about this a lot here - I'm not sure Bindel has really said anything as worthwhile or interesting as lot of the regular posters here have, it seems a little one dimensional to me.

Maybe because she's really stuck on the left-good right-bad thinking and doesn't really consider whether there has been a change within those categories at all, or why the left has struggled with certain problems. It seems to me she sees it as almost random, and if we just take out the TRA stuff things can go back to normal.

OP posts:
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InfiniteSheldon · 12/10/2020 19:18

Feminism does not belong to the Left. Try starting from that point and 'allies' won't matter. Feminism is for all women not some cosy cabal of correct thinking Left women to allow or disallow anyone else.

EvenSupposing · 12/10/2020 19:13

I suppose I'm just not clear whether it has any bearing on whether men can become women. I mean even if every GC feminist in the world jackboots up it makes very little difference to the underlying issues doesn't it?

persistentwoman · 12/10/2020 19:00

SpartacusAutisticus - Thank you for posting that link to Dr Em's piece. Lots of food for thought in that article - and the image is chilling

testing987654321 · 12/10/2020 18:54

I think there is a big difference between what I think of as "proper" feminists/lefties and people like me. The proper ones read books about politics and feminism and so they are basing their views on sociological theories.

I am not from that kind of background, the only book I have read like that was Dworkin's Pornography.

I simply listen to what current activists and politicians are saying and decide whether I agree with them or not, based on pretty simple principles of fairness and decency.

That's why, when "the left" start pretending they don't know what a woman is i challenge that. It doesn't matter to me who is doing the interviewing or who else agrees with me.

I am broadly left wing but my thoughts are always my own.

Cascade220 · 12/10/2020 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kit19 · 12/10/2020 18:48

It’s the ‘we’ll get to your lady issues once the Revolution is won’ mentality except the Revolution is never won

If women’s issues coincide with what benefits men then fine but if they don’t then women can get to the back of the queue

Floisme · 12/10/2020 18:41

Julie Bindel also tweeted: The problem is the so-called left abandoned women but also abandoned any notion of the left:
twitter.com/bindelj/status/1315705705509330948

I'm seeing this argument a lot. It's very seductive and I really, really want to believe it, but it's a bit too 'no true trans / no true Scotsman' for comfort. I'm afraid I'm closer to the view that the left has always been authoritarian and always treated women like shit, but that I chose not to see it until now.

jj1968 · 12/10/2020 18:36

@EvenSupposing

Who's 'they'? Is it Sonia? Or Stephanie Davies-Arai?

Both. Sonia Poulton is clearly very involved with the site and Stephanie Davies-Arai agreed to be interviewed in a video which began with an advert for a fellow Brand New Tube contributer who is an antisemite and holocaust denier. Transgender Trend are linking to Brand New Tube on twitter which literally contains Nazi propaganda on the front page. Harry Miller and Posie Parker have also both appeared on the site.

Original poster
Goosefoot · 12/10/2020 17:13

I daresay there are some individual organisations that it might be best for anyone to stay away from. Organisations organising violence would be a no-go for me, for example, and I'd criticise people for working with them in most scenarios I can imagine (though it can get trickier when you get into questions around "freedom fighters" in repressive political regimes and such, which maybe goes to show that it is difficult to make very generalised pronouncements.)

But "right wing" is pretty generalised. And I find the claim that anyone who is from the right wing believes, for example, in the most extreme sort of 1950s sex roles a little hyperbolic.

I also wonder why it is Bindel, given all the writing she's done on sex work and prostitution over the years, doesn't see that there is an element on the left that is nothing new that fully embraced the sex positive movement, and that that type of thinking has been a strong element in a lot of the opening up around sexuality as well, much as that might be uncomfortable. For many people, the acceptance of casual sexual relationships is very much coming from the same stream of thought as acceptance of prostitution as a valid work choice. Ideologically, that has come out of the left since the 60s, back to the time she is pointing to as the left having been good for women.

Part of the issue might be that she seems to have very little separate economic thought, though maybe she just doesn't write about that. But I don't think that it should escape someone looking at these political phenomena that at the same time some leftist feminists are allying with some right organisations or becoming interested in some right-wing arguments, many of the people who traditionally were part of the labour movement are also voting on the right. It's not chance that these things are happening at the same time.

OP posts:
Kit19 · 12/10/2020 16:31

‘Not based in any reality’

EvenSupposing · 12/10/2020 16:31

@jj1968

Well they are clearly helping to promote BrandNewTube, a conspiracy theory website that allows antisemites to post videos of actual Nazi propaganda. Bit off wouldn't you say.
Who's 'they'? Is it Sonia? Or Stephanie Davies-Arai?
Kit19 · 12/10/2020 16:30

Yes OP I think that’s what Labour/the left aren't getting. If they can decide men are women, harrass women who don’t agree & demand they are lucked out if the party, how can I trust them not to get another batshit based in any reality idea & run with it?

Hence my ongoing political homelessness

EvenSupposing · 12/10/2020 16:28

It's odd that anti-semitism is now something the left are calling out big time. Wasn't there a point when they...erm...weren't? I'm sure I remember that. Or did I dream it?

PronounssheRa · 12/10/2020 16:27

This is Julie's pinned tweet.

I'm not sure I want to aligned with misogyny on the left either. Two cheeks of the same arse (The left and right that is)

Julie Bindel - article on allies
jj1968 · 12/10/2020 16:24

Well they are clearly helping to promote BrandNewTube, a conspiracy theory website that allows antisemites to post videos of actual Nazi propaganda. Bit off wouldn't you say.

Cascade220 · 12/10/2020 16:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NRatched · 12/10/2020 16:20

Its interesting thoguh, that there is so much focus on who 'gc groups work with' when TRAs have, not exactly savoury bedfellows themselves. But of course, feminists are the wrong ones for agreeing to disagree on some topics. If we only 'worked with' (ie spoke to, seemingly) those who agree with us on all topics, we would never have been able to sucessfully fight back against the ridiculous selfID proposal. Mind, I think thats the whole point of shaming women who disagree with gender ideology for various (random) things tbh. That seems to be entirely behind the 'omg feminists are agreeing with the right wing on something, bigots!' line of argument too.

TheRealMcKenna · 12/10/2020 16:19

Isn’t it amazing how quick people are to criticise the company the ‘other side’ keep.....

Something about motes and logs springs to mind....

NRatched · 12/10/2020 16:17

Working with? Doesn't seem that way?

jj1968 · 12/10/2020 16:14

Surely the point is gender critical groups working with an organisation that promotes antisemites and covid deniers.

NRatched · 12/10/2020 16:12

Never been one for purity politics though tbh. I have never been 'the good little leftie' stereotype, as have always had opinions that differ. But opinions that differ are not a problem, surely! I would struggle to find anyone who agreed 100% with me on every issue, that would be quite odd, nevermind a group who did! I don't see the need to only 'work with' those who agree with me on every topic, I think thats a bit daft really. And agreeing with certain people on one topic, certainly does not mean I agree with them on everything else, nor should it! I could agree with some right wing group on gender, but fight against them on abortion access. Its not all or nothing here.

Floisme · 12/10/2020 16:12

It's like having an ex who's dumped you but still insists on following you around and trying to control your life.

EvenSupposing · 12/10/2020 16:12

Does Montgomerie have a point when Montgomerie says that GC views are like anti-vaxxers - based in Science denial? Er...nope? Grin

NRatched · 12/10/2020 16:09

@Floisme

The trouble is, the Left has let women down. Badly. It's a bit more fundamental than letting us down, isn't it, Julie? The issue, as I see it, is that the left doesn't want me. They have made that perfectly clear. And yet they still seem to think they're entitled to have a say over who I should or shouldn't be talking to.
Yup.

'The left' were infact actively asking for women who believe in sex like me, to be kicked out of the Labour Party for fucks sake. Its not just letting us down, its actively kicking us out and saying we are not good enough lefties as we care about sex based rights.

jj1968 · 12/10/2020 15:47

Doesn't she have a point though when things like this are going on: twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1315231336018386944