Where are all the trans men?

I knew a trans man a few years ago in a community group that I was involved in. I found him incredibly difficult to cope with because he didn't get social boundaries at all, and thought that he could take liberties like a women, while also taking liberties like a man, if that makes sense. What I mean is that he could be coarse like a man, while also thinking he had a right to kiss my newborn baby and take the baby out of my hands without asking, as women sometimes do. I think this individual had learning difficults, which complicated things.

I think just generally, it is probably really hard for people to transition and then fit in, because as a culture, we just don't yet know how to handle that, and we don't know what the rules of polite social engagement are for people in this situation I suppose we will get there in time.

In the meantime, I expect we'll all be repeatedly cheesed off about all sorts of quite subtle things, unfortunately.

I follow a sport related website on which there are two regular posters who say they are transmen (I haven't met either of them in real life but have no reason to doubt this). The only time they post passionately about anything is when a debate ignites around a transwoman participating in women's sport, when they come out shouting about the transphobia that transwomen have to suffer and the lack of trans voices in decision making on transwomen's participation in elite female sport. Which suggests, anecdotally and based on a tiny self-selected sample, that even after transitioning women are being manoeuvred into ignoring their own needs and wants and advocating for the men.

For an eye-opening and quite distressing exploration of the power dynamics at play between older transwomen leading youth groups and young teenage transmen, I recommend Benjamin Boyce.

Ben GNC Centric is a lesbian and previously identified as transgender. In this interview with Benjamin Boyce, she highlights important issues (based on her experiences) within the community when the relevance of age, sex and their attendant power asymmetries are disregarded in a frankly disturbing way that recalls Sheila Jeffreys and her work on sex castes. (Middleaged transwomen led and spoke over them at 'youth gatherings' and told them to shut up and listen because transwomen are the apex of the oppression hierarchy, and teenage transboys are somehow at the bottom.)

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community'
14 Mar 2019

What's the Etsy issue? I missed that.

I've heard it said men usually transition to gain attention while women transition to avoid attention. Seems to match the pattern I've seen.

This is interesting and fits that the few I have heard of are in Year8 - Year11.

Sheila Jeffreys' Gender Hurts details why transmen end up as the least valued of the sex castes.

Actually, we only hear from white men who now identify as women, white transwomen, as black comedians point out. A privileged demographic with a sense of entitlement and a loud megaphone.

Funny how being raised without male entitlement and arrogance makes you less of a self-promoting loudmouth.

Also, transwomen like MB play into male-driven social norms of what an attractive woman should look like (big boobs, tight dresses, heels, wigs, thick make-up) so it’s not surprising the media wants to cover them. There’s no sex to sell with trans men: masculine-presenting women have never been seen as sexy in our patriarchal world and that goes double for trans men.

Transmen aren’t fighting to get into men’s prisons (as far as I know).

At this point the house of cards comes tumbling down. Transmen and everyone else know that they are female otherwise they’d be fighting for this

Maybe there needs to be a campaign to allow them in? Tongue in cheek obviously

‘Obviously a woman wouldn't even be able to do that because we don't get pockets’

Cos, arket, uniqlo are your friends for dresses with pockets

It’s possible the reason there’s more focus on transwomen is transmen aren’t as represented in male sports (i know there are some but they don’t seem to be making the same noise as some sportstranswomen). I don’t think there’s many transmen bragging about the victories they’ve made and the medals they’ve won. I could be wrong.

There also is no such thing as “all men shortlists” for transmen to be getting on (and I doubt they’d be pushing many men out if they did, like I doubt men would be falling over themselves to say this is absolutely right and fair). There seems to be silence on trans men’s right to inherit but I’m not on twitter so maybe loads of men are complaining how wrong it is their trans brothers aren’t inheriting titles ahead of them etc.
Transmen who do not pass or non binary women don’t seem to be arguing as vocally for access to men’s changing rooms. Transmen aren’t fighting to get into men’s prisons (as far as I know).

I have no idea how many transmale models are working for Men’s Health etc presumably there’s a fair spread of male/transmale models featured. I mean that would be kind wouldn’t it? So I guess it’s happening.

Were this trend to continue, the only way for someone born female to seek fair treatment would actually be to identify as a trans man, but that would require extremely troubling medical intervention.

Why would that be necessary? What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. Most men who transform (is that the verb) into women don't do a blessed thing to their bodies.

You just need to pronounce yourself a man. And have a meltdown if someone says you aren't.

And I don’t remember any woman forcing their office to address her as a man even though she changed nothing.
Maybe I should start a trend? I don't think anyone would blink (which gives me the rage a bit: am clearly already "one of the guys", whether I want it or not!)
Seriously, though, I'd never do that, because I'm not a narcissist. I don't want to draw attention to my gender non-conformity. Just like I don't want to draw attention to my sex. I'm personally fully comfortable with both. But attention is threatening.
Whereas the big trans celebrities clearly feel no such fear. Some may say "male socialisation", but I'd say "narcissism". The reason they can socially get away with it, is probably because they're male, though. Male narcissists just seem to get away with everything (glance at current US and UK leaders...)

Quietly living their lives without entitlement. The were socialized as women after all.

The transman I know is doing exactly what he did before he transitioned - training to be a nurse. So lovely to see more men entering this kind of female dominated work. You'll be shocked to learn that pre transition he had very late diagnosed ASD and suffered so badly from lesbophobic bullying that he had to change schools. He made a few videos during his transition, one was really heartbreaking, he said something along the lines of "I wasn't girl enough then but I'll never be man enough now". I hope he's happy and that he lives a life of peace and fulfilment, I really think he'll be a great nurse.

As others have noted, the sexism so glaringly evident in trans activism and its results is extremely informative. It is only the female biological sex which is being erased and it is only the trans women who are celebrated and even centered in some feminist circles while trans men, indeed, are only famous if they give birth. They are not picked among the leaders of men while trans women such as MB certainly are viewed as leaders among women.

And the people who are expected to be kind and inclusive are only one particular kind in these debates.

From a purely intellectual point of view this is all extremely interesting, because it shows the unconscious privileging of male opinions and male trans activists by far too many women who call themselves feminists and it also shows the tools which are used to turn bog-standard women compliant with their own erasure.

But of course in overall terms what is happening is truly horrendous. Our ability to address sex-based oppression is erased and should we point that out we are bigots.

Were this trend to continue, the only way for someone born female to seek fair treatment would actually be to identify as a trans man, but that would require extremely troubling medical intervention. Or so I think when I try to understand what the category 'women' would consist of in the gender identity school. Once biological sex is not allowed to be mentioned at all or used as the basis for someone's gender identity, 'women' would probably be those who prefer retrogressive female sex roles, who are content to be viewed feminine under various sexist definitions, or who are into appearance and being viewed as a sexual object etc.

Pete Utility Tits

I imagine many transmen are still experiencing the exact same sexism they always have.

Cailleach1 I used to work with a man who favoured shirts with two pockets and who didn't use his trouser pockets for some reason - so would fill these two, perfectly postioned breast pockets with his wallet, hanky, keys, phone etc. He was called Pete Utility Tits.

Obviously a woman wouldn't even be able to do that because we don't get pockets.

Shouldn't we also be asking where are transmen who transition when middle aged ? there seems to be a distinct lack of them compared to their male counterparts.

Need coffee. Wear changed to were (not ware). Over and out.

Wasn't me. Wear changed to ware.

I have a few checked shirts. I call them my 'cowboy' shirts. I don't experience euphoria in relation to them, but I must say they have very handy pockets on the 'chest' area where you can put a list or your keys.

I'm now going to have a private joke when I were them.

There's certainly not a flood of middle aged women suddenly realising they've been men all along, tweeting about the gender euphoria of checked shirts, demanding their children start calling them Dad and that their male partner either accept he is now having sex with another man or cancel himself as an unsupportive bigot.

I think the nearest you’ll get to a ‘celebrity’ transman in the U.K is someone like Jake Graf, a film maker and actor who works hard to raise the profile of other trans people in the profession. Many of their photos on their Insta emphasise their masculine features (muscly arms, tattoos, well groomed beard) but that aspect has perhaps been eclipsed by the arrival of Jake’s daughter who was gestated by a woman in Northern Ireland from Jake’s own frozen, fertilised egg (using donor sperm)

Their baby is gorgeous and Jake looks every inch the proud parent. Lots of comments of the ilk ‘proud daddy’, ‘daddy’s little girl’. And there’s lots of male model tropes in their professional photo shoots ie. tuxedo with loosened tie looking like they’re trailing home in the small hours after a night of shagging and gambling, smouldering stares to the camera while their muscly arms protectively encircle a woman lying on their chest, cuff-link fiddling - y’know the type of shots that are the staple of men’s fashion magazines.

Jake has an obvious skill and career that runs alongside their activism. It’s not all about the photo shoots. There’s also the transman in Emmerdale Ash Palmisciano. But I agree, the column inches, when it comes to successful, adult transmen, don’t compare to the focus placed on (and desired by?) transwomen.