Where are all the trans men?

Ah thank you for explaining, so Etsy is off the hook for now.

For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

I don't see it as a way to include trans men but more as a way to exclude women, however, here the term breastfeeding is used - not 'chest feeding' - because the person doing it would like to have others consider them as female and therefore able to use drug induced fluid. 'breast' milk to feed their newborn child. 'Chest feeding' is for trans men, not trans women or women. What do we call fathers who idneofry as men and fathers, feeding their babies from bottles whilst they lie on their chests?

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Aren't young men at more risk of violence than women? They used to be but I don't know current stats.

Yes. However, of course, it depends on what is categorised as violence for this discussion.

Women and children are disproportionately at risk of domestic violence and and women for intimate partner violence. Once those categories of violence are included, it's a much murkier picture as to who are the greater victim categories for male violence and there's marked stratification by age.

Until the recent Observer femicide campaign - I'd no idea that beyond a certain age there was/is rannygazoo around what is included in some statistics as violence and what is/was written off as a 'safeguarding' issue once women reached 60 or 65 years of age.

The OP of this thread was last October - not sure why old ones get resurrected like this but might explain why I don't know what the Etsy thing was!

Aren't young men at more risk of violence than women? They used to be but I don't know current stats.

Yes, men are at greater risk of violence, but overwhelmingly from other men and often in contexts such as gangs, pub fights, sports matches and general male group situations.

Men are at very little risk of violence from females. But men as a class pose a risk to women as a class - of course not every single man, but enough for separate spaces for women to have existed for a long time. There is also the fact that male violence against women is often sexual and there's also the risk of sexual harassment and pestering, voyeurism, flashing and all the other behaviours that may not be physically violent but are threatening and frightening.

Of course it would also be good if men could be protected from other men, but since women have a high risk of a number of specific threats from men, it's still right to have separate female spaces.

The entire conversation seems to be dominated by former white men, now white "trans women," who are belligerent, entitled, aggressive, and even incite violence in some cases. Most still have penises, apparently, and some still want to have sex with women, but now as "lesbians." I shared bathrooms with trans people on occasion for years in California, and my friend's son is such a happy adolescent trans he was cast as a trans character on an episode of an American teen show (he's so convincing he simply reads "girl"). But this "punch a terf" end to dialogue, and aggressive takeovers of women's spaces, is a whole new ball game. When will people point out that the emperor has no clothes?

I've heard it said men usually transition to gain attention while women transition to avoid attention. Seems to match the pattern I've seen.
I disagree. Perhaps some do, but surely, surely, most transition because they have ‘gender dysphoria’ (quotes because I do not believe in ‘gender’).
There are many transwomen who just get on with their lives. Also, some that have a very high profile, such as Blaire White. Blaire loves a bit of attention, obviously, as she has a YouTube channel, but her reason for transitioning was gender dysphoria.
Transwoman does not equal TRA.

I work with some transmen. They are very busy posting blogs about how to address people and to remember their pronouns, while earnestly explaining that the rest of us are c*s.

Sounds like a lot of boring 'wife work' to me while the males transwomen are out there doing the usual important / fun stuff like winning awards and medals.

Some things don't change with gender identity.

Your JKR example is a good one. She was complaining about language intended to be inclusive of trans men, so why was the response so overwhelmingly about trans women? Why do both sides of this debate (people who oppose trans rights and self identification, and people who support them) place so much focus on trans women, to the point that people like the OP aren’t even aware of prominent trans men?

I expect it’s lots of complicated factors - misogyny, ability or otherwise to effectively ‘pass’, fear of femininity, co-option by bad faith groups (on both sides), etc. But I don’t think it’s helpful. Lots of trans men are doing great activism which clearly isn’t being appreciated, and lots of trans women are taking flak for initiatives and attempts at inclusivity which aren’t actually anything to do with them.

I found Petite Fille on BBC4 last night very sad and troubling.

Trans women are often even the focus of push back against initiatives that actually aren’t anything to do with them. For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

But it's not transmen threatening women with extreme violence when we object to the degrading language, is it? Why is that?

Did you see the response to JKR's ''there used to be a name for these people'' tweet? The majority of responses were ''trans women are women'', even from Daniel Radcliffe who forgot to mention transmen, which is strange being as periods, the subject of JKR tweet, have nothing at all to do with transwomen 🤔

Transmen don’t get to do this because their femaleness means that underlying power and threat is not there, and they are not treated as men by other men to anything like the same degree. There are very few areas where you need to be a man, because men don’t have the same needs for safety and protection as a class that women do. But in those areas, such as primogeniture laws, no one centres trans men, because society is set up to protect men’s interests and wants

Aren't young men at more risk of violence than women? They used to be but I don't know current stats.

Another one wondering what the Etsy stuff is about? I searched on Twitter but couldn't find it.

Elliot Page
Kenny Ethan Jones
Alex Bertie
Laith Ashley
Chaz Bono

There are lots of famous trans men out there!

I do think trans women tend to get more hate in the media and online than trans men. Unsurprising really - misogyny continues to exist. But I do find it interesting how much the debate on trans rights focuses on trans women rather than trans men.

Trans women are often even the focus of push back against initiatives that actually aren’t anything to do with them. For example, I’ve seen a lot of negativity directed at trans women in respect of initiatives to make language around breast / chest feeding, childbirth, gynaecological health etc more inclusive of trans people, when it’s actually trans men these initiatives are designed to include.

False premise sorry

That article is based on a false press it’s dadjoke - that GC feminism is transphobic, and also that its main aim is transphobia and it’s just using feminism as a “guise”. That’s not the case - GC feminism is about challenging and dismantling gender stereotypes and arguing that you can depart from them without being trans - and about protecting the sex-based rights of females.

It is typical of genderism to assume everyone’s motivation is all about hating on trans people. It’s not. It’s just that extreme genderism threatens women;s rights and regressively enforces gender stereotypes, and so GC feminism argues against it. So do many trans people themselves. I don’t see how GC feminism can be inherently transphobic when some trans men and trans women agree with it.

The Transmen only make the news when they do something completely gender fluid like becoming pregnant and having babies.

Tongue in cheek, slightly.

if a trans an wanted to join a prostate cancer survivors group

I very much doubt any of the survivors in the group would be loudly declaiming how grateful they are for the fashion tips and 'world class accessorising' (iirc the Fawcett commenter correctly).

GC people are obsessed with trans women, and there is a lot more transmisogyny, sometimes rooted in homophobia, than broad transphobia. GC people patronise trans men. They certainly get attacked when any mention of pregant people.

@Deliriumoftheendless sure, trans men have appeared in Men's Health.

www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/2/08/meet-first-trans-man-cover-mens-health-europe

Here is a trans man writing about transphobes - well worth a read.
jayhulme.com/blog/transmen

I work with some transmen. They are very busy posting blogs about how to address people and to remember their pronouns, while earnestly explaining that the rest of us are c*s.

Unfortunately most of our contact these days is on Skype so you hear a woman's voice introducing herself as Mr. It's most unnerving.

We see a lot of TW pushing into female spaces and trying to assert control with violent threats, violent behaviour, intimidation, exposure as in the recent spa case, or just vocally making demands and getting positions in women’s organisations. It is often about power and subjugating women and making women uncomfortable, or at best, just not caring about women as long as the male is centred and pandered to. Many TW are pandered to by women telling them they are women, welcoming them as women, patronising them about their ability to accessorise, etc.

Transmen don’t get to do this because their femaleness means that underlying power and threat is not there, and they are not treated as men by other men to anything like the same degree. There are very few areas where you need to be a man, because men don’t have the same needs for safety and protection as a class that women do. But in those areas, such as primogeniture laws, no one centres trans men, because society is set up to protect men’s interests and wants.

if a trans an wanted to join a prostate cancer survivors group, the men would be unlikely to go along with the fiction that the TM belonged there, and could easily make the TM unwelcome by virtue of the innate power imbalance between the sexes. But when TW demand access to women;s spaces, the women involved are always aware there is a potential threat so some pander to the male, others avoid the situation, and some fight it but by doing do put themselves in danger.