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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Keira's Case in the Times today

113 replies

Igneococcus · 10/10/2020 07:39

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fba6fad2-0a6b-11eb-9ac5-9d2cf4a10c9f?shareToken=f626b4b291808447a875b53cd678f216

OP posts:
Datun · 10/10/2020 09:34

Jesus rogdmum, that's difficult to believe.

They're straight up admitting it all.

I'm remembering how almost every thread on here about Jazz Jennings, what they were going through, all the details, and why, was targeted and deleted.

The only child who was publishing, in the full glare of publicity, all the details of their medical transition, was not allowed to be analysed or discussed because the rules suddenly said individual specific people could not be talked about.

What was happening to Jazz Jennings was only to be viewed when filtered through their own reality show.

No bloody wonder.

zanahoria · 10/10/2020 09:26

I am really pleased how this case and the World Rugby report are moving the arguments along. The TRA tactic of nodebate will be impotent now genuine scientific and legal points are being discussed in public. It feels like we are leaving twitter and moving into the real world.

rogdmum · 10/10/2020 09:23

Some quotes from the talk above:

“ We are putting responsibility back on the family because we don’t have the evidence base to say ‘it’s these kids or it’s these kids’, or how we can pick out which kids should go forward and which kids shouldn’t. “

“The blocker is not a benign thing, it comes with - I don’t mean financial costs- it comes with downsides, especially around energy- if the young person has mood difficulties the blocker can sometimes make that worse- it also takes away those sex hormones, so that whole thing I was talking about, of being attracted to, developing crushes, when all your teens and peers are getting into relationships and developing social connections in that sense- that’ll be gone, well not totally gone, but that drive that interest whether it’s the opposite or same sex or whatever will be greatly reduced.

And we do worry, because we don’t have long term evidence for this. We do worry for what impact that might have on their identity because sexuality is such an important part of your identity,who you’re attracted to.”

“It can often mean you are signing up to be a patient for the rest of your life. In a way you taking what is essentially a physically healthy, you know it’s not got medical- you might say internally in terms of gender it’s not right- but medically it’s a healthy body and you’re introducing medication and making it dependent on medication, so ethically it’s really quite a complicated area, especially for children.”

“We’ve only started talking about fertility in the last 4 to 5 years. Before that, we were putting people down this pathway and actually they were coming back to us 15 years later and going, “oh, you never really said, you know And that’s what I mean about this being such a new area, cos we weren’t even doing hypothalamic blockers under the age of 16 until 5 years ago. We don’t have people who are 40 to 50 to see, you know, how’s your life been, were we right to intervene so early? We don’t know.”

rogdmum · 10/10/2020 09:20

I’ve posted this before, but if anyone wants to see just how little Tavistock’s clinicians know about PBs and how they openly (as suggested in court) put the responsibility for the decision on parents, watch this talk by Aidan Kelly from the Tavi in 2018 (from the 15 minute mark is most relevant):

doublehalo · 10/10/2020 09:09

Excellent and concise article.

I'm gobsmacked by this '..many adults are happily asexual..'. (Tavistock’s QC, Fenella Morris).

So it's ok to castrate and sterilize children then? Aside from the obvious inaccuracy with that because of course asexual people are still capable of experiencing sexual desire and orgasm.

I'm feeling very uneasy about the outcome here. There needs to be many more articles like this to bring the issues to the attention of the general public so the judge knows they aren't operating in a vacuum.

borntobequiet · 10/10/2020 09:03

@zanahoria

A child will not have a full understanding of the consequences of the treatment

I am not even sure the doctors do

Absolutely.
borntobequiet · 10/10/2020 09:02

I’ll buy the Times today. Though I can’t stand any of the witless lifestyle commentators or that pointless magazine.

ThinEndOfTheWedge · 10/10/2020 09:01

But for now the unintentional legacy of the prudish Mrs Gillick is the legal question: can a child consent to forgo capacity for adult sexual pleasure, before it has even begun?

Wow. What an end to an article. On supreme form - as always - Janice!

zanahoria · 10/10/2020 09:01

A child will not have a full understanding of the consequences of the treatment

I am not even sure the doctors do

Gncq · 10/10/2020 08:53

Great article.

NotBadConsidering · 10/10/2020 08:27

Every time I read one of Janice’s articles, I’m amazed at how she manages to summarise such complex issues within her word count. No wonder she wins awards. 👏

LizzieSiddal · 10/10/2020 08:27

Thanks for the link. Great comments too on the article.

Does anyone know when the judges will announce their decision?

FindTheTruth · 10/10/2020 07:46

thanks @Igneococcus

"“Future me” is the heart of the debate"

"what if your younger self shut doors for ever?"

“a high level of competence” is required, “for a high level of decision” and “autonomy without comprehension is no autonomy at all”.

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