Janice Turner on Keira's Case in the Times today

@BlueBrush

That QC quote is spot on. Anyone who’s had major medical treatment will have come across specialists who seem to detach the patient from their condition, as though there isn’t an actual person attached to it. ☹️

Oh I wasn't trying to say they were on either side or whateve,r obviously they will weigh everything up..just did seem they were quite critical but as I said, could just be the way the tweets were presented.

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

sorry should have added

because I don't know what was accepted

It would be a bit daft at this point to hazard a guess at what the judges might be thinking. We read twitter extracts, we are working on assumptions. I'm being hopeful, but am also aware of how little I know of the written evidence that has been put forward and I think there was quite a bit of it. Lots of it for Kiera & Mrs A was medical and from far afield experts - I am still being very, very cautious

Also quite concerning, is that noone seems to have even considered if blockers also half vital brain development dring puberty that would generally help people become more at ease with their body. That would explain the near 0 desistance, as the child is stuck in the mindset permanently, until the cross sex hormones actually start. I remember about 3 years or so ago, that bloody sprout guy on twitter going down my neck as I pondered brain developmet being stunted by blockers. Apparently there had been many studies that proved this did not happen, I was clearly bigoted, the usual. Of course, none of such studies could ever be produced though, and it seems, no studies have even been done since, or are planned either! It just makes perfect sense, if all other aspects of puberty are blocked, why would the brain development be any different?

Do any of these people ever ask why so many young women want to be men?

Exactly. Why is that question not being asked? What is going on in contemporary culture to make young girls want to change sex?

Janice is spot on, as usual. She really is a great journalist.

I read the twitter threads on the case late into the night, it astounded me, the arguments that some 10 year olds will be sexually active and such, I would have thought, if a child was sexually active at that age it would be an urgent referal to the safeguarding lead (who is IIRC, also taking the Tavi to court, due to purposely avoiding referring safeguarding concerns to her?!). Claiming very young children understand what they are doing in taking such drugs is just insane to me. Up til being about 14 I had no interest in anything at all sexual, I also was adamant I never wanted kids well into my twenties til something just kind of..switched as I grew up. I doubt that experience is rare. As a kid, if I had been told 'oh this could affect your fertility' it would have been a 'who the hell cares about that?!' kind of situation for me. As I understand it though, fertility issues are not really discussed, no matter how much the QC makes out they are centred. They say fertility is discussed at the cross sex hormone stage, however, given studies appear to say blockers almost always progress to cross sex hormones, surely fertility shuld be a huge part of even the blockers stage. I know some like to claim blockers are 100% reversible, and that may be true in theory, but in practise they appear anything but reversible. And definitely not harmless as claimed for a long time until recently.

Many of the arguments by the Tavi were deeply concerning to me. And it did seem te judges were pushing for actual answers, and getting none in ma ny places. Though it might just have been the way it was written up that made it come across that the judges were extremely critical of the defendants. Hard to note tone and such in written word of course.

"This case has exposed the dangers of a medical echo chamber treating vulnerable children. The Tavistock is a Stonewall Champion required to follow the standards of care issued by WPATH ( a trans-advocacy organisation ), recommending children have ‘support’ from Mermaids, and inspected by the CQC ( a Stonewall Champion)."

Janice, if you're reading this ^^.

This procedure would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Do any of these people ever ask why so many young women want to be men?

This should not be led by surgeons who get millions of dollars to not look at why dead men's penises need to be grafted onto healthy women.

ABC posted this comment on that article. Totally sums up how I feel about this situation. A clear case where several organisations combine, in order to achieve a result which matches their agenda.

"This case has exposed the dangers of a medical echo chamber treating vulnerable children. The Tavistock is a Stonewall Champion required to follow the standards of care issued by WPATH ( a trans-advocacy organisation ), recommending children have ‘support’ from Mermaids, and inspected by the CQC ( a Stonewall Champion)."

I made a brash decision as a teenager trying to find confidence and happiness,” she said. “Except now the rest of my life will be negatively affected

Thank you for posting this Igneo. I honestly believe that there will come a time in the not too distant future when this period will be viewed as a reprehensible betrayal of children and teenagers by adults in positions of authority. The clinicians and 'charities' involved in this should be exposed to forensic scrutiny. I have been a Type 1 diabetic since I was 16. I wept when I was diagnosed because of the prospect of lifelong medication. But without insulin I would be dead. It makes me furious to think that teens struggling with identity issues are being set on a medical pathway for life when its irreversible consequences have not been made explicit. Keira should never have been put through this, but her courage in exposing this to public and legal view will hopefully prevent her story happening to other vulnerable young people.

I'd characterise it as "mendacious".

I was looking forward to their take, nauticant.

The poster Disgusted of Manchester is outdoing themself in the comments with their misinformation, smears, and all-round dishonesty.

Some of the younger teens might have masturbatory experiences but feel it as something shameful or disturbing that they think they'd be better off without, perhaps? (So, not properly and maturely know but they might think they do)

I agree vermeil.

So much of that article gave me the chills, especially the blithe comment that many adults are happily asexual.

The QC argued that Tavistock patients think more about sex and identity than ordinary children, and an 11-year-old “who did not know what an orgasm or erection was would not be deemed capable of consent”.

Which implies that some of them do know? I mean properly know? Jesus - I know I was maybe a bit of a late starter but are they really saying that there are 11 year olds that are able to give consent on something that will affect their sex life to come?

Long term, this is going to be another one of those infamous medical disasters, like lobotomies, thalidomide, and infected blood transfusions. Always driven by that odd mix of hubris and blinkered well-meaning that the medical profession can be prone to. No wonder no-win-no-fee solicitors are starting to circle, there’s going to be a lot of compensation down the line.

the medical professionals involved in this are experimenting on children. they are doing this to children because they can

to see what will happen

to see if you can make a male look like a female if you pause puberty here and cut this off, and put silicone here

to see if you can make a female look like a male if you cut these off, flay this skin from here, use it build this appendage

I'm not normally one for hyperbole, but it's repellent, and it truly does fall into the 'playing god' category. some of them belong in prison in my opinion

A good article and awesome comments. The sunlight being shed by this case is fantastic - a quick look at the comments underneath the Mail article show 100% horror at what has ben allowed to happen to children.

Chilling, really terrifying. If I had been offered the opportunity at the age of 12 (when my periods started) to stop my body from growing breasts and pubic hair, and to stop men from ogling me in my school uniform, and to never have to think about "coming on" at a friend's house during a sleepover, I'm sure I would have seized on it without a thought. Some of my friends achieved much the same effect by developing anorexia. If any medical professionals had gone along with this by prescribing diet pills and emetics, they would have been quite rightly struck off.

Children with immature brains being given drugs to alter their perfectly healthy bodies and make them sterile and a lifelong medical patient because they are fed lies by adults who wish to push an agenda. Yeah, completely fucking ethical.

They need to take the money being pumped into the trans lobby and put it into teen mental health.

The affirmation only thing needs to stop asap. They need to work on the co morbid mental health issues that won't/don't magically disappear because they have never been dealt with.

We’ve only started talking about fertility in the last 4 to 5 years. Before that, we were putting people down this pathway and actually they were coming back to us 15 years later and going, “oh, you never really said, you know And that’s what I mean about this being such a new area, cos we weren’t even doing hypothalamic blockers under the age of 16 until 5 years ago. We don’t have people who are 40 to 50 to see, you know, how’s your life been, were we right to intervene so early? We don’t know.”

How on earth has this been allowed? These are children with mental distress, being turned into whole life medical patients when the medics simply don't know the consequences.