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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Keira's Case in the Times today

113 replies

Igneococcus · 10/10/2020 07:39

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fba6fad2-0a6b-11eb-9ac5-9d2cf4a10c9f?shareToken=f626b4b291808447a875b53cd678f216

OP posts:
Antibles · 10/10/2020 15:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NoSquirrels · 10/10/2020 14:55

To me, the whole argument about puberty blockers seems to stem from adult transitioners who wish they’d never had the ‘adverse effects’ of natal sex puberty - and overwhelmingly I have seen this vocalised by MTF trans people who wish they didn’t have Adam’s apples, ‘manly’ jawlines and shoulders etc. Not very much is ever said about/by FTM late transitioners, probably because there’s really no ‘adverse effect’ to going through female puberty and then transitioning later in life - you can still have a mastectomy and take testosterone that will change your body shape adequately to ‘pass’.

It all feels like it comes back to men getting what they want.

Antibles · 10/10/2020 14:41

I will keep saying it as best I can on MN without being deleted. The entire concept of 'trans' needs to be addresssed.

While people still take it at face value rather than correctly labelling it as actual things that it is the door will remain open for this entire shitshow to dance through.

I maintain that the GRA must be repealed and, furthermore, the protected characteristic in the EA 2010 needs to go as well because organisations are being forced to treat the legal fiction created by the GRA as a real thing, resulting in all the clashes with sex-based rights and exemptions.

Antibles · 10/10/2020 14:32

Some of my friends achieved much the same effect by developing anorexia.

As trends in teenage girls' self-harm go, over the decades we have seen a wave of anorexia, then bulimia, then cutting, now I would say it's gender dysphoria.

sashagabadon · 10/10/2020 14:27

Future me is a brilliant turn of phrase and really sums up the issue for me.

nauticant · 10/10/2020 14:07

Yes, 12 year olds only come in two types: sexually experienced and otherworldly who will never have an interest in sex.

Datun · 10/10/2020 14:02

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

My ghast isn't often totally flabbered by these people and queer theory because I'm so used to them, but it was then. Stunned at how blatant that was.

The only people they don't appear to be relying on are 12-year-olds who don't know whether they want to have sex or not because they have no idea what adult sex entails.

Funny that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2020 13:50

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

My ghast isn't often totally flabbered by these people and queer theory because I'm so used to them, but it was then. Stunned at how blatant that was.

RozWatching · 10/10/2020 13:46

Ah yes, Action for Trans Health.

doublehalo · 10/10/2020 13:46

@rogdmum

Some quotes from the talk above:

“ We are putting responsibility back on the family because we don’t have the evidence base to say ‘it’s these kids or it’s these kids’, or how we can pick out which kids should go forward and which kids shouldn’t. “

“The blocker is not a benign thing, it comes with - I don’t mean financial costs- it comes with downsides, especially around energy- if the young person has mood difficulties the blocker can sometimes make that worse- it also takes away those sex hormones, so that whole thing I was talking about, of being attracted to, developing crushes, when all your teens and peers are getting into relationships and developing social connections in that sense- that’ll be gone, well not totally gone, but that drive that interest whether it’s the opposite or same sex or whatever will be greatly reduced.

And we do worry, because we don’t have long term evidence for this. We do worry for what impact that might have on their identity because sexuality is such an important part of your identity,who you’re attracted to.”

“It can often mean you are signing up to be a patient for the rest of your life. In a way you taking what is essentially a physically healthy, you know it’s not got medical- you might say internally in terms of gender it’s not right- but medically it’s a healthy body and you’re introducing medication and making it dependent on medication, so ethically it’s really quite a complicated area, especially for children.”

“We’ve only started talking about fertility in the last 4 to 5 years. Before that, we were putting people down this pathway and actually they were coming back to us 15 years later and going, “oh, you never really said, you know And that’s what I mean about this being such a new area, cos we weren’t even doing hypothalamic blockers under the age of 16 until 5 years ago. We don’t have people who are 40 to 50 to see, you know, how’s your life been, were we right to intervene so early? We don’t know.”

Their brief Fenella Morris seems to be saying otherwise.

“This appears to be based on the assertion that puberty blockers have life-changing effects, particularly on sexuality – it seems to be said either in themselves or because they lead to a progression to cross-sex hormones,” Morris said. “These assertions are not accepted by the professionals within the Tavistock or the [NHS] trusts.”

NRatched · 10/10/2020 13:45

O/T But my last post reads ridiculously, with two in my minds. I need to stop posting stuff in my mind, in my mind. Grin

RozWatching · 10/10/2020 13:45

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

Fucking hell.
That reminds me, didn't one of the UK trans charities demand funding to set up a medical training programme for trans people, by trans people, so they could have their own, separate healthcare system?

Destinysdaughter · 10/10/2020 13:41

This was on FB. An American Dr who does a lot of sex change surgeries. Her feed is all about how proud she is about all the girls she has operated on. I found this post especially disturbing, as she's being so cutesy and using the popular music of BTS to promote it. Chilling. And profitable!

www.facebook.com/1914451722102925/posts/2772652612949494/?sfnsn=scwshmo

Datun · 10/10/2020 13:36

Well in my mind the actual process is fiction. But I meant, that the surgeon was now advocating for that. Thats extremely cncerning in my mind.

The mindset seems so prevalent.

Surgeons in the US advocating to reduce the age of patients, endorsed by mermaids, the relentless profiling of surgery as 'vital healthcare', lobbying groups like Action for Trans Health fantasising that they want laws made where trans people can operate on one another, being taken seriously enough as a group to contribute to a government report.

The surgery is a massive part of the ideology, and so very many people advocate for it.

And there is a tremendous amount of money washing around in the US.

It's all very disturbing.

NRatched · 10/10/2020 13:28

@nauticant

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

Well in my mind the actual process is fiction. But I meant, that the surgeon was now advocating for that. Thats extremely cncerning in my mind.
Datun · 10/10/2020 13:27

Or, a 12 yo who would like at that point to become asexual because they're being abused.

Exactly.

No one should be relying on what a 12-year-old thinks of sex, at 12, to determine what happens for the remainder of their entire life. Their whole life!

ErrolTheDragon · 10/10/2020 13:24

@Datun

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.
Or, a 12 yo who would like at that point to become asexual because they're being abused.
stella47 · 10/10/2020 13:24

Thanks for the reminder of the Aiden Kelly talk rogdmum. I remember hearing it before, and being amazed that after everything he said, the conclusion WASN'T "so of course we don't recommend this, there's not enough evidence", but rather was - "there's all these concerns and unknowns, but we're doing it anyway".

Datun · 10/10/2020 13:24

@nauticant

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

Just to be clear, it's not fiction that Bowers is advocating for it. I agree it's still in fantasyland. But it's something that Bowers is advocating for.

Bowers is the leading surgeon for trans surgery.

The town where they practice gets called something like Sex Change Central.

This is Bowers thing.

I would sincerely hope that an ethics committee wouldn't even allow research. But given the money involved in this sort of surgery, I'm not holding my breath.

noblegiraffe · 10/10/2020 13:23

What's the evidence that many adults are 'happily asexual'?

If many adults are happy with lack of ability or urge to have sex, then why is there a market for viagra? Why so many 'cures' for low sex drive?

Where did they pluck that from?

Vargas · 10/10/2020 13:21

@NotBadConsidering

Every time I read one of Janice’s articles, I’m amazed at how she manages to summarise such complex issues within her word count. No wonder she wins awards. 👏
This!

So often I read her articles and think 'yes, yes this is what I was thinking in my confused and befuddled way'.

nauticant · 10/10/2020 13:16

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is fiction but is presented as fact, or achieveable fact if we wait only a little while, so that less outlandish interventions look tame in comparison. It's about shifting the Overton Window.

Datun · 10/10/2020 13:13

You know someone's argument is absolutely fucked, and doing the usual job of twisting it self into a corkscrew, when the justification for consenting children, relies both on 12-year-olds happily having sex and simultaneously on 12-year-olds who will never have sex because they're asexual.

nauticant · 10/10/2020 13:11

For any of us who've been reading about this issue for years NRatched the argument that there's nothing to be concerned about in children having sex at an age many years below the age of consent is depressingly familiar.

Datun · 10/10/2020 13:09

@NRatched

Oh I wasn't trying to say they were on either side or whateve,r obviously they will weigh everything up..just did seem they were quite critical but as I said, could just be the way the tweets were presented.

Marci Bowers, the transwoman surgeon responsible for the initial surgery that went wrong on Jazz Jennings, is now advocating for taking penises from dead men and sewing them onto women who identify as transgender.

I hope to god thats fiction. I know, given datun posted it, its probably not. But this makes me feel sick to even contemplate.

It is sick.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4046739-Penis-transplant

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