Langcleg is vindicated

The real issue is that one interest group within the trans community want safeguarding removed because that benefits them and they see it as an obstacle, but removal of those safeguards harms others within their own community and others outside it.

This. middle-aged men want hormones for a completely different reason to young women. And it appears to be in their interests to lump the two groups together.

The fact that women have identified this and are challenging it makes them a target. It's not an 'opposing view' that one needs to respect.

Maybe we should fashion a saggy titted idol?

She called a spade a spade. I can imagine she was a thorn in many sides, and bloody good on her, I say. What she was not, was a bully, and I’ve no interest in people who suddenly fall out of the woodwork to say so, when she’s not here to defend herself.

Bullying is the use of force, coercion, or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate....One essential prerequisite is the perception (by the bully or by others) of an imbalance of physical or social power. This imbalance distinguishes bullying from conflict

She will, Rufus

I know she’s worshiped here

Oh for goodness sake...don’t say that on here!

If she is reading she’ll have such a big head 😀

... I think it shows up the problem of the 'be nice' mantra of this age which forgets the simple reality that not everyone has your best interests at heart and not everyone is nice.

It really does. "Be nice/kind" is a poor message for girls on a number of levels.

It's really not difficult.

And of course women need to be able to name the two sexes. Otherwise how can they name sexism? It's not much of a gotcha to have identified that.

What on earth is a 'male posting style'?

Many women here are survivors of coercive control. They're very alert to the dynamics when they play out elsewhere.

Quite. Also like everything it is a matter of degrees. You don't have to be being locked up to be being coercively controlled.

Sorry
You aren't* looking at the right threads.

I had a conversation last night with someone on cross sex hormones.

We were talking about studies and evidence of harm for puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. I thought they were saying things that were no accurate so i asked for the source.

I got a couple of links.

Lets just say it didn't reflect was the poster was saying here and it confirmed what we've said about there being a serious lack of evidence for the effects on children and transmen.

Given the context of the thread theme this was quite a problem.

We also know that this kind of opinion is being shared on trans forums with kids. Also a problem.

Its really important we challenge people and misrepresentation of studies if they are saying theres no problem.

I don't give a fig what their gender status is.

If i challenge it, am i going to 'chase someone off' because they dont like being presented with valid evidence based concerns? Im not trying to be difficult about it or nasty in anyway. It was there in black and white from a source that i didn't provide.

The thing is there is more than one interest group involved here. And we are talking about the pushing of long changing drugs - which isnt a factor present when you are gay or lesbian - , and it seems to be male older transitioners pushing for access to experimental drugs on much younger female transitioners who carry completely different risk profiles. Which is a problem.

This is where it is important to be able to point out that transwomen are falling into the male trap of falling to recognise the gap in research for men and women which occurs across all sections of medicine. We need to be able to highlight the fact we can not lump all trans medicine into one group because its not that simple.

But we are caught between this crap of being called transphobic and real world issues which have very serious implications - often for the trans community itself.

The real issue is that one interest group within the trans community want safeguarding removed because that benefits them and they see it as an obstacle, but removal of those safeguards harms others within their own community and others outside it. And theres a sizeable number dont wish to have this pointed out - especially the bit about harm within the trans community itself. Because it does fit their agenda and they dont wish for others to realise it because it harms the chances of them achieving their goal. Any challenge at all is misrepresented as afront and not caring or understanding instead. Its not. Its just people saying 'hang on theres a problem here' that they dont want to have to acknowledge.

This is what frustrates me. I come from a place of understanding this and being concerned about how misrepresentation harmed a family member. I know that theres a sizable number of posters her with daughters who they believe are being told unscientific bullshit, but they cant stop it.

Bottom line i think there is a case to say that people who are spreading what in other contexts would be more clearly identified as 'conspiracy nonsense' are actually leading and influencing policy and yes this needs to be challenged robustly in order to strengthen evidence led practice in this area.

When pointing out the blindly obvious problem which is causing harm to children becomes presented as 'not being nice to other users' as it might chase them off...

... I think it shows up the problem of the 'be nice' mantra of this age which forgets the simple reality that not everyone has your best interests at heart and not everyone is nice.

Don't know what that random as is at the end there!

It’s so rare that you see women expressing themselves so forthrightly

It’s also interesting how quickly that forthrightness gets described as aggressive, hectoring or strident

I genuinely find this comment interesting, how you say that women being forthright on here.
Yes, that's a good thing, of course, to be able to express ourselves, but if you have an opposing view on anything if you are "forthright" it means you must be a man or a TRA.
As someone said upthread, if you have a "male posting style" - (whatever the heck that is)
Or what whoiswrongg said I’m not a TRA grin I’m a woman with an opinion. We’re allowed them you know, even if it doesn’t match with your own
That's what actual women are up against on here if they don't always fall in line.
aS

I think there are some posters here who won’t be happy until they can openly refer to trans women as ‘men’ and ‘he’

Why is that such a terrible thing? Most people don't like having their speech compelled, especially if it means they are forced to lie.

And she regularly referred to coercive control with regards to mumsnet or posters or people, which completely trivialises a crime which sees women completely isolated and in fear every single day.

Many women here are survivors of coercive control. They're very alert to the dynamics when they play out elsewhere.

@Whoiswrongg

I’m not a TRA I’m a woman with an opinion. We’re allowed them you know, even if it doesn’t match with your own.

not my actual views

I do think Lang's tone was sometimes off, and she was black and white about things. As I've said before, despite agreeing with her on almost everything, she did occasionally rub me up the wrong way too.

But that's not to say that she was incorrect or wrong, or that she should have been banned (which I think was a mistake). As you say, a lot of it is about social conditioning and expectations. We can all read tones of voice differently online too.

Luckily, we don't have to massively like each other or agree on every single thing to work together on this.

It’s so rare that you see women expressing themselves so forthrightly

It’s also interesting how quickly that forthrightness gets described as aggressive, hectoring or strident

Moonbasealpha:
What exactly is the problem?

The problem is some people think it makes sense to say trans women are women.

It does not make sense, you see (except in the degenerate way in which 'seahorses are horses' makes sense, for instance).

Some people find this difficult to understand. Result, problem.

There is a further problem in that some of the people who find it difficult to understand seem not to want to understand, so they do not try.

I am not sure why it is so difficult. I do have some idea about the not wanting.

People are strange, indeed.

I’m not a TRA I’m a woman with an opinion. We’re allowed them you know, even if it doesn’t match with your own.

And she regularly referred to coercive control with regards to mumsnet or posters or people, which completely trivialises a crime which sees women completely isolated and in fear every single day.

This is not true. Provide examples.

She was making a certain point about coercive control on one issue.

The TRAs hated Lang because she was clear, consistent and could package up an arse handing in a few well crafted sentences.

Not content with her being banned, they now try to call her a bully. Lies and liars.