Titles

I've never heard that "technically" Ms is the title to indicate divorce. OP your older relatives are just wrong.

Ms is the equivalent of Mr - an indication of being an adult woman, without also indicating marital status.

A bit like "Mrs" in the 18th century & before, when Mrs (short for "Mistress") again meant "adult woman" as opposed to "Miss." I think the 'adult' bit of it got equated with being married - or rather, marriage signified reaching adult status for women.

i don't think it's that unusual, or difficult to get one's head round.

[quote Nicknamegoeshere]@Goosefoot Which word is being used contrary to its meaning?[/quote]
Miss in English, except in certain specific circumstances, is used to refer to an unmarried woman, Mrs a married one, and Ms doesn't imply anything about the marital status of the person in question.

People assume they are hearing wrong - Miss and Ms are especially difficult to distinguish - or it's a typo, because you are using it in a way that is unusual, not because they are thick.

The oxford dictionary definition is
'A title prefixed to the name of an unmarried woman or girl, or to that of a married woman retaining her maiden name for professional purposes.'

But now it's increasingly common for women to not change their name for social as well as professional purposes on marriage. It would be silly to say the OP could still be Miss Nickname at work but had to be Ms Nickname elsewhere, wouldn't it?

I expect people think they are hearing it wrong or it's a typo. If you choose to use a word contrary to it's meaning, people will often assume it's an error and will follow the conventional meaning.

but's that just it, it's a way of showing off, or at least it's a pride in one's profession of being a qualified surgeon.
they all have to start as a medically qualified doctor, and then some go on to qualify as surgeons.
i know it is a historic anomaly, as other specialities do not proceed like this, but that's a big thing about britain, it clings on to some very odd seeming traditions, like wigs on barristers and judges in court.
we kind of like these things generally, as they link us to our past, and are seen as harmless.
but, guess what, since i last posted re titles on official forms,
i received a renewal form from tv licensing.
i had to fill it in, on pain of criminal proceedings and imprisonment.
i scrolled down in the title field, and lo and behold, the last one was, 'none'.
i selected that and the title field remained blank and it moved on to the next question. yipeee.
they must have been reading us on MN.

I mean you (like us) have some real jackasses with PhDs that use the title 'Dr,' but your actual highly educated medical professionals still choose to lose their well-earned title when elevating to surgeon? And Miss is somehow better than Dr.? Completely nonsensical IMO outside of your culture (and a few others colonized by the UK) I mean we are a little past barber surgeons at this point. Surgeons require so much more education than just a PhD or a GP - as an American I find it to be quite the insult to someone that has dedicated so much time, money, and effort to their career.

It is like reverse identity ideology or something... almost like willful obfuscation.

Cultural difference I get it but I still think your title rules and pervasiveness of titles in general is jacked. So many things about the UK are fascinating and/or very enjoyable for me but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around.

Surely some of them must be aware you can have a baby out of wedlock these days, and not have to hide your shame?

why should anyone know any more about me than i choose to share.

Exactly - and if they need to know my sex, like the doctor, they could have a separate field to record that in. Same for if they need to know my marital status, though other than probably HMRC, I don't see why most people need to, however much they might want to.

i cannot quote the person who said miss for actresses was not to recognise their professional status, for some reason the quote box does not appear above that post .
anyway, though it may have been used also for that, i do not agree that was the reason. it was well established that a professional or career woman was styled, Miss full name, as are surgeons, singers, dancers, teachers, writers.

yes, FireUTH, that is what annoys me.
on all forms, esp official ones, and for bills, accounts etc, one has to specify a title.
this is why i wondered about Mx.
i would prefer that because if a woman is living alone, say in an apartment house where other people can see the mail delivered, it is easy to identify a woman living alone.
this attracts weirdos and criminals.
i would prefer, A Smith on bills. but it's not allowed, not possible they say. must have a title. so it's Ms, reluctantly.
why should strangers, anyone who sees my mail, know if i am woman. as long as i pay my bills, comply with laws etc, why should anyone know any more about me than i choose to share.
it is about data privacy to me.
that is why i would like Mx, in lieu of doing away with titles on forms, registrations etc.

Wow, I just realized by reading the rest of the responses (after I posted) that in the UK you have titles on official documents? Is this right?!?!?

Again I think my US culture is very different on this... titles are outdated and only used sometimes in formal situations (invitations, I don't put them on there but some people do) as well as a nicety to be polite when interacting with an authority figure (teacher, etc) or stranger. Like I can't remember the last time I said Miss, Ms. or Mrs. out loud and I grew up with 'southern values' (being polite and speaking to others with respect - especially elders). I speak to everyone (in person) with a level of respect - I do use Ma'am and Sir when it seems appropriate as a polite greeting or to get someone's attention (regardless of age whether young or older, kids are the only exception as I call kids 'dude' or 'kiddo' or something like that depending on how well I know them).

The idea of actually having a title on my documents seems really bizarre and terribly archaic (for my US perspective). Do they force you to use a title, like you can't complete a document without noting it? Not judging you all on this I am just taken aback.

I find this so irritating that it is a required field in so many forms. Does anybody know why?

Probably a mix of lazy thinking (we've always done it,) and companies liking to assume that customers are male or female or whatever for data-gathering and marketing purposes.

Making ridiculous assumptions based solely on an individual's title is soooooo 1920's
If only that were so.

I prefer not to use a title at all, but that is not an option on many electronic forms

I find this so irritating that it is a required field in so many forms. Does anybody know why?

Also, I always mentally thumbs up any organisation that puts the female/male question in alphabetical order...

I prefer not to use a title at all, but that is not an option on many electronic forms, so if I must use one it's Ms. I still have one or two accounts which have Miss, (including my credit card company, who did manage to send me a new card with no title recently, but failed to update my account from Miss to Ms, because I can't have a bank account without a title, which doesn't really make sense to me.) I notice that if I don't put any title, "they" seem to default to Mrs rather than blank. I have never been Mrs Bearhug - that's my mother, my aunt, my grandmother, but not me.

(And yes, this subject has been done to death, but I still post nearly every time it comes up in ML.)

I think female High Court Judges are known as Mrs Justice Surname but assume that is because Miss Justice would be a bit unfortunate.