Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

It is indeed closing the 'back street' clinic.

The trouble is no one likes to jump through hoops - the back street don't ask awkward questions and give you what you want, when you want it - even if it turns out bad.

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

Can you post a link to these statistics?

It's such projection.

Closing down the ' backstreet abortions' In order to promote the healthy, accountable, sanctioned ones.

The question is, who advocates for backstreet medical treatment, over upfront, NHS treatment??

You guys sound a lot like anti abortion activists using the stories of poor souls who have regretted their decisions to oppose bodily autonomy for anyone seeking an abortion.

Keira Bell's story is tragic. As she says, she was determined to go along a particular path, and it must be horrific to have such regrets now. People at 16 make lots of decisions that they later regret, eg to have or to not have a baby. What to study at uni. Whether to or not have chemotherapy for cancer. These all have life ramifications. We should be supporting education to help teenagers, and adults, have the reasoning and critical thinking skills to help them figure out what is best for them.

Whilst every person who regrets transitioning is deeply sad, these numbers are by far eclipsed by the thousands and thousands who, like me, would have benefited by transitioning earlier.

To take the cancer treatment example - chemotherapy can save lives, but also often has horrific side effects. For some people it has negative effects (i'm a nurse, I've seen it too often both in professional and personal capacity) in that it did not stop their cancer, but did impact the quality of the life they had remaining. To decide whether or not to have chemotherapy is not a straightforward decision based purely in survival rates. It has to be the decision of the patient themselves. And yes, they might come to regret it. The chemotherapy most definitely will have done harm to them. In a majority of cases, thankfully, the person will benefit overall because they will survive. But to take away that opportunity because for a minority it was the wrong decision? That would be immoral.

Yes everyone, however old, should be given assistance in making the right decision for themselves. We need more funding for trans services so that there is plenty of support for those who need it.

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

But.... This is already dodgy as fuck? Unethical, not properly regulated, run by a doctor who has been suspended due to their conduct? The 'back-street abortions' are already happening?

Pharmacies in the UK need to be sure that the prescriptions they fill have been issued in accordance to UK prescribing guidelines. Clear Chemist now obviously have concerns about the prescriptions issued by GenderGP. If there is no problem and GenderGP are issuing prescriptions within U.K. prescribing guidelines I’m sure this will all be cleared up very quickly as a big misunderstanding.

However, according to the article previously linked to by another poster: www.independentpharmacist.co.uk/644618-gphc-to-look-into-concerns-over-hormone-scripts-to-pharmacies there would appear to be , IMO, valid concerns:

“However, concerns have been raised that the services offered by GenderGP, which is owned by Harland International Ltd, a company registered in Hong Kong, circumvent the checks and safeguards required by NHS clinics before approving treatment to help children transition.
While children going through NHS services undergo a multi-step assessment including a GP referral, therapy sessions and meeting with an endocrinology team, it appears GenderGP's only mandatory requirement are information gathering sessions conducted by video link.”

I don’t know why anyone would argue that puberty blocker and cross sex hormone prescriptions to adolescents should fall outwith UK prescribing guidelines and if there are concerns, they should be investigated.

You want more clinics? you've been told you'll get more clinics. If you don't believe it, take it up with Liz Truss.

Given the state of the country/world right now, I don't see the waiting lists significantly reducing anytime soon

They'll reduc all right. As soon as schools nationwide start abiding by the government advice to stop teaching gender ideology, stop no platforming people who object to it, and demand an evidence base for all of it, certainly the children queueing up at gender clinics will plummet.

Doctors STRUCK OFF for professional misconduct and failure to observe medical ethics are not heroes.

Equally people who support medical ethics and the principles of 'do no harm' and evidence based medicine when prescriptions are issued are not trying to harm anyone nor are they evil or nasty 'haters'.

Quite the opposite. The people who care about addicts are not their dealers. Dealers might act like best buddies and give out freebies to get a vulnerable new client hooked, but they sure as hell aren't friends.

Its the money they are interested in not well being.

If victims of a STRUCK OFF doctor can't see this, it does kind of show the problem pretty well.

Maybe whats happening with people getting hooked on these prescription drugs has more in common with the US opiods crisis that a comparison with back street abortions where big pharma is out to make big money rather than the welling being of patients being the focus of the problem...

This is a good point.

There are dodgy online pharmacies selling opioids to addicts in the UK, too. I suppose we should think that's fine because those people aren't buying smack from dealers?

If we're running with the abortion analogy, it still doesn't work, since Gender GP actually is one of the back-alley abortionists of the trans-health world.

I find it interesting that so many trans people are outraged that a black market source of pills has been shut down, and that there is a court case about the poor standard of trans healthcare.

I would have expected trans people to be pleased that dodgy doctors taking advantage of their condition were being questioned? Surely trans people don't actually want healthcare that is poorer and less safe than that given to other people.

Maybe the risk is all these people pumping themselves full of drugs that don't ultimately solve their problems...

...reading the detail of the current court case involving the Tavistock certainly raises the qestion of just how much (or how little) evidence based medicine is going on.

Maybe whats happening with people getting hooked on these prescription drugs has more in common with the US opiods crisis that a comparison with back street abortions where big pharma is out to make big money rather than the welling being of patients being the focus of the problem...

Its not only trans healthcare thats slow as fuck unfortunately. The answer is certainly not a suspended doctor giving out powerful drugs to make herself a bit cash and skirt the law in any way she thinks of. Times need sorted all over the NHS, not just gender issues, but obviously including that.

I also do not consider the inquiry into the Tavistocks practices as an 'attack'. An inquiry to make sure treatments and such are the correct ones and that the establishment is following the rules is not an attack at all. It should actually be seen as a good thing IMO..as it will improve trans healthcare if something is happening that shouldn't be and this is stopped. If nothing is untoward or anything, then nothing changes.

I was a client of GGP, so I know all of that, thanks. Your quibbling doesn't affect my point.

My point being that, like back-street abortions, the demand will be met by a supply. Any teenager with a credit card and an internet connection will do whatever they feel they need to do with no oversight whatsoever. The concerted, well-resourced attacks on all trans healthcare will put people into more risk, not less.

if you seal off the front doors (by destroying GGP, the Tavi, etc), then the back doors will become the normal route, and heaven help us. x

GGP is the 'back door'. It's run by a doctor who has been suspended by the GMC and has a criminal record for running an illegal clinic in the UK.

Webberly doesn't practice anywhere, and GGP don't sell hormones.

Webberley is still a part of GGP. They write prescriptions for hormones which were being dispensed by Clear Chemist.

The urge to reply sarcastically to the idea of being reassured by a "government pledge" is pretty overwhelming, I don't mind telling you.

Given the state of the country/world right now, I don't see the waiting lists significantly reducing anytime soon. People who are desperate and suffering will go wherever they need to, 'bloody dangerous' or not. I know many people on this site and elsewhere would say '"well, fuck 'em then" but I like to think that others wouldn't be so callous.

BTW, the '3 new clinics' aren't new at all, despite Truss saying so. Also, Webberly doesn't practice anywhere, and GGP don't sell hormones.

Oh lord. The government have pledged to open three more gender health clinics.

Campaigners have got what they wanted. More health resources.

Buying hormones from a doctor who is suspended for handing out drugs illegally is bloody dangerous.

I'm sure everyone here is overjoyed to learn that 1000s of trans people have just had their medication supply disrupted as of yesterday as Clear Chemist have stopped filling prescriptions.

Neither GenderGP nor the Tavi are perfect, but were you aware that they are entirely optional? "Trans DIY" is a thing, you can get any meds you want on the internet with zero medical oversight whatsoever, and Youtube can tell you all sorts of useful-ish stuff.

This has similarities to birth control and abortion availability in that if you seal off the front doors (by destroying GGP, the Tavi, etc), then the back doors will become the normal route, and heaven help us. x

Melroses and Maud exactly. I don't understand the reluctance in making sure its all as well understood as possible, and its the right thing for each person, and evidence based rather than woo and experimentations. I genuinely cannot imagine complaining because there was a inquiry into the pain clinic as they wanted to better understand the treatments and make sure they were the best quality they could be and more likely to actually help.

As for
Imagine if people with GAD were forced to undergo assessments to prove they weren't lying about their anxiety.

Erm, do they not have to? Many friends have anxiety and some are medicated for it, but it was never a case of just 'I am feeling anxious, give me valium' or whatever. It took a while and in some cases referals which again, were a long waiting list. And counselling seems to be favoured over drugs, in our area anyway. Its not not believing the anxiety is there, but making sure it is ad there are not other underlying problems, and making sure the treatment pathway is the correct one for that person.

It comes across as many on there seem to think for all other conditions, you can just march in, tell the doctor what you want and get it, its only transpeople who are having to wait and be assessed, which is total bollocks. Obviously.

I don't understand the idea that gender dysphoric or other trans patients don't deserve high-quality, evidence-based treatment the same as everyone else. This needs proper, funded, research and robust randomised, controlled, thoughtfully-designed clinical trials. Not a load of unregulated prescribing by grifters.

Its not to shut down trans healthcare, its to get the same standard applied everywhere in medicine

I can't see why anyone would object to this if they understood the risks/benefits properly

Rading the reddit thread now

And even if you compare it to other non-physical treatments, it would still be unacceptable to do stuff that increased suicide/self harm risk so much.

It would be unacceptable to stop a doctor giving strong medication willynilly if it was for anything else.

OK. I have had a pain condition for the past 6 years. It took 2 years for the referral to a pain clinic and a further year for a follow up appointment too. I have been waiting almost 2 for an appointment to speak to them about physio.

I understad what the wait for meds that help is like. During the initial 2 year wait for the pain clinic, my GP was unwilling to prescribe anything stronger than codeine. Luckily its better now meds wise (due to pain clinic) but..if we compare my medical situation to the people posting on there about how its horrific to lose their lifeline and such

If during the two year wait I had fund a doctor who was currently suspended but willing to write me a script for oxycodone which would have instantly helped my life to a massive degree..do they really think this is an acceptable situation? Should I moan when the doctor got found out about how horribly unfair it is that I have to wait in line for treatment like others have to? Even taking a dodgy docter out of it, say I was buying oxy from a dealer instead as the doctors wouldn't do it. Dealer gets locked up, my supply is gone. Should I then be able to just get a presciption from my doctor for it because I had managed to get it illegally so long from elsewhere? Should I be prioritised and just given what I ask for because I was sometimes suicidal because of the constant pain, just jump the queue and get what I want, fuck everyone else? As this seems to be the lines of argument I am seeing.

Waiting lists are shit, I know. Its shit when you know what wil help you but medical staff disagree, or you cannot even see the person you need to for ages. Have been in both situations and its awful. But..thats how it is. Waiting lists are massive for everything. If you chose to buy 'off the books' and that supply chain is cut, while yes it will feel like a disaster to you, its just people trying to keep everyone safer and practising evidence based treatments.

Webberly should be arrested IMO. Same as a doctor caught just giving massively strong pain meds after an just an email consultation should be. Even moreso if they had been caught doing this, suspended so they just moved elsewhere and conitnued giving out meds to all and sundry! From her reply on there, shes looking for another loophole to exploit in order to keep givig people drugs when she really should not be able to do that at all given circumstances.

I also do not see asking for an investigation into the Tavi being something so horrible. Its not to shut down trans healthcare, its to get the same standard applied everywhere in medicine. One area cannot be different and not follow the usual rules and procedures, even if the people in that group threaten to kill themselves if they don't get what they want. And honestly?! You would think it would make trans people very happy, that people are waiting everything to be safer and evidece based, rather than quicker. While again, I understand wanting the meds right now, its just not like that anywhere in medicine!

Word is that this will adversely affect all those GenderGP patients under 18, regardless of arrangements with local GPs, plus any over 18s whose own GP was unaware that treatment was being prescribed (these patients receive their monitoring through GenderGP, and pay handsomely for it).

Those who are over 18 and have a shared care arrangement with their GP (where the GP covers monitoring and is aware of treatment) will be able to get their prescriptions as usual, once the chemist has confirmed GP involvement and has seen evidence of monitoring.

Why on earth are Webberlys precriptions still being actioned. Is there not some way to basically block her from dolling out strong drugs to kids in this country given shes..not licensed now?

Which Maria Miller bizarrely gave greater weight to in her final report than to submissions from the association of prison governors or the professional body for criminal psychologists working in prisons. (In fact, if memory serves me, she didn't even mention their evidence in the final report, though fortunately it's all recorded in Hansard.)

Indeed. Quite unbelievable.

Contrast that to the public consultation where the government stated they knew it had been gamed by lobby groups.

We've come a long way.