Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

Because there are no 'proper' answers,

How about the group that is so keen on medicalising children actually turn their full attention to finding them. Or do you accept that maybe there is a reason why in the past so much research was defunded, shut down and no further discussion was to be had? Instead of shrugging off the damage and harm to children that may not be trans but that you consider acceptable collateral damage, you use your voice like other transgender people are to fight against the restriction clinicians now face on affirming only treatment. There are some quite prominent transwomen and transmen who are advocating for greater research, for more mental health support and for better safeguarding. Why not add your voice to those who are fighting for answers. Instead of shaming the women who are fighting for answers.

Because, looking at my own daughter’s friends I can tell you there IS a problem. There should have been answers already since a study into this rapid increase was announced 2 years ago and nothing came of it. By the time this current study brings positive change, it may be too late for my daughter’s friends. I put those failures firmly on the doorstep on advocates of affirming only. Where would you lay the blame? Or do you really believe 40% of my daughter’s group of friends are all trans and should be on hormones prescribed via an internet based doctor based in Spain. One who has a great deal of controversy about their practices.

Because these girls have already found ways to get their binders delivered so their parents don’t know. And from what I can tell at least one is being exposed to child sex abuse from her new friends on the internet and has begun showing the others. Next stop self medicating.

So, tell me again how you personally are fighting for answers? not shrugging them off as ‘they are just really trans like left handed people’. Because I am seeing the truths of that cry of ‘no debate’ that led to no research that is letting these young teens down. What are you doing about it?

And I think we have just seen the exact lack of evidence for the course of treatment that is medicalising children. There was nothing put forward except WPATH guidelines. And a NHS barrister handwaving the rape of 12 year olds as an example used to explain consent.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them, because no-one here would accept someone like me challenging them.

Lol, is that right?

Mad, your posts suggest, to me at least, that you are blinded by your own needs.

There is no evidence for these treatments of children. Adult males wishing they passed isn't it.

And when you have 76 children in one school identifying as trans, you can't possibly be surprised that parents demand answers.

You appear almost exclusively interested in dealing with symptoms of gender dysphoria. Many women and mothers, gender critically are interested in dealing with the cause. To prevent it from occurring.

It's blisteringly obvious to feminists why girls, particularly, want to transition.

So shrug away. This has been dragged into the sunlight, despite frantic efforts to stop it, and it will be addressed.

The problem with GC (should be "TC" IMO, but whatever) is that whatever you say, whatever logical, rational argument you make, to explain what trans ppl are (dysmorphia, stereotypes, misogyny, creepy abuser, bogeyman, fetish, HSTS, etc.), I'll just shrug and say 'no it's not like that' so you ask why, and I, infuriatingly, shrug again.

We are asking for appropriate justification for the medicalisation of children. A shrug doesn’t cut it funnily enough.

But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) cs child feels.*

This isn’t true. Many people can empathise with body dysmorphia.

We feel their impotent distress

Appropriate adjective there, given the effects of puberty blockers.

We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.

I think there are genuine adults who want to alleviate the distress of children, albeit in the wrong way IMO, with hormone treatments that don’t work and cause harm. But I also believe there are others who have other reasons.

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion

No, what has happened is the public has become aware of how trans children are being defined. We are aware that a child can only meet DSM 5 criteria for gender dysphoria with the inclusion of behaviour involving stereotypes. We have become aware that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria - with all the problems making that itself might have - isn’t required for a child to receive puberty blockers. We’ve become aware that doctors have, for a long time, not been “largely successful” but have in fact been ignoring trauma, abuse, depression etc in children. We have become aware that thousands of children have been treated by doctors with puberty blockers despite poor evidence. You may see this as care being dragged away from these “largely successful” doctors, the rest of us see it as sunlight on a practice with poor evidence that has continued unabated and caused physical long term harm to children. It would be convenient for some if it could all go back on the QT and no one asked any questions but we are not going to allow that to happen. Having things out in the open doesn’t create more problems than it solves, the affirmative medical treatment with no evidence or regulation is what has created more problems than it has solved.

Again I don’t understand why trans people aren’t railing against their doctors. They should be asking those doctors why they think trans people don’t deserve evidence-based medicine. They should be asking why they have allowed this treatment course for children to continue despite knowing that it will render them infertile and asexual, and while not knowing what it will do to these children in 30-40 years. They should be asking why they’ve been promised better mental health when the evidence shows hormone treatment and surgery doesn’t improve this.

Why is it we are the bad guys for pointing out to people like you Mad that the medical profession has let you down on a scandalous level? Go talk to them and complain, don’t complain to us.

@RedToothBrush et al.
Pretty much all of your statements here are fair and reasonable.

The reason I say I sympathise is because you are all faced with the same stark choice that I was: accept it and deal with it, or don't. Now that Trans is out in the open and not society's dirty little secret anymore, you're stuck with it just as much as I am.(I have very mixed feelings about this.)

The problem with GC (should be "TC" IMO, but whatever) is that whatever you say, whatever logical, rational argument you make, to explain what trans ppl are (dysmorphia, stereotypes, misogyny, creepy abuser, bogeyman, fetish, HSTS, etc.), I'll just shrug and say 'no it's not like that' so you ask why, and I, infuriatingly, shrug again. This continues until one of us runs out of patience and then it usually gets shitty. So you stop asking, agree amongst yourselves whatever you want, and your logical, rational minds are satisfied, but closed. You are in denial, and there can be no constructive dialogue while this is the case. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them, because no-one here would accept someone like me challenging them. But I understand why you cling to them, just like I understand why my 'side' clings to theirs.

Because there are no 'proper' answers, anyone can take any position for any reason, and trans people are often reduced to mere fodder as much by pro-trans allies as by anti-trans enemies, of which there are many. There are simply not enough trans ppl to be heard by ourselves, and unless we are amplified by others (with who knows what agenda) we mostly get drowned out by almost any other group speaking for or against us. (Interestingly Detransitioners are in a similar boat, and there's even fewer of them). Globally, we are quite possibly outnumbered by JKR's Twitter followers, for God's sake. When we do get in the papers, it's usually for all the wrong reasons.

Most Trans adults, if they are lucky, can just about advocate for themselves. Many don't even want to be visible, let alone be 'activists'. Most of us, believe it or not, don't shitpost awful threatening Tweets, and have little control over those that do. But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) c*s child feels. We feel their impotent distress when their care is withdrawn or threatened. We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion, for fair reasons or foul, which is creating more problems than it solves. We are in a situation where we see each other as a threat to children, and we are both right. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

^You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times. I get that and I sympathise. It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.
I, as a trans person, can only tell you how often and how much I wished any of that was true, even before I was old enough to have words for it. I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation^.

I believe there is a psychological condition of gender dysphoria where someone is mentally uncomfortable to a greater or lesser extent with their sexed body. I don't believe it's anything other than that so I don't personally buy into "trans" and no one's account of it has convinced me that people innately are the opposite sex. I also don't think true gender dysphoria is as common as it's claimed to be.

People believe a lot of things, very strongly, that seem real to them. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times.

Have I? Can you link to some of my posts where I've said that? I don't believe that anyone is literally 'born in the wrong body' if that's what you're referring to.

It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.

In different individuals it does appear that it can be any of those things.

I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation.

You appear to have accepted that the best pathway for you is to change the appearance of your body. If that helps you, that's fine. You're an adult. You can make these decisions about your body.

I'm not a child growing up in the 21st century, so I admit I can't really understand what it would be like to have the words, to know there were others like me, and to expect society to be able to deal with it. But I do know that denying it even exists is harmful for everyone.

But since you can't describe what it is, how are we to know the best way to treat these children? You can't find the best medical pathways if you can't describe what it is you're trying to treat. Nobody is literally 'born in the wrong body, so what is a 'trans child'? Is it a mental health condition? Why do these children think their bodies are wrong? What can we do to help them? Drugs and surgery should be the last resort for those who are unable to come to terms with the bodies they have.

That's so right, RedToothBrush.

I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it

Unfortunately medicine had to be logistical and rational and cant really be just given because someone feels like it. Otherwise it could do more harm than good to vulnerable people who may (or indeed may not in the case of detransistioners) be trans.

The drugs are being oversold to far too many as a magic bullet to deep and complex feelings which you yourself state we dont really understand.

Even more reason why giving drugs to people in this position isnt necessarily always the best idea.

We need to make sure EVERY patient gets the best possible care and is safeguarded. There should be 'very sad' court cases like Kieras.

Thats the point.

Do no harm. First principle.

I dont see why we are talking about section 28 here at all anyway.

We're not. Mad is. I expect it was the inadvertent word association between 'taught' and 'schools' that set them off.

Unfortunately for mad, they can't demand that Liz Truss reneges and starts insisting on gender stereotypes being the basis for medicalising children, cancelling women who disagree, and demanding there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to underpin their treatment.

Sorry about that, Mad, but Liz Truss has wised up. Perhaps you'd better write to her about all the left-handed children?

@OldCrone
You don't believe trans exists, I've seen you say as much many times. I get that and I sympathise. It's said to be an illness, a perversion, a fetish, etc. etc. and I'd say you believed some or all of those things.
I, as a trans person, can only tell you how often and how much I wished any of that was true, even before I was old enough to have words for it. I'm a very logical, rational person but there is little that is logical or rational about being trans. I don't think anyone truly understands it (let alone me) but that doesn't change my situation at all. I am trans; my choice was to accept it and learn to live with it, or go crazy with self-hatred and alienation.

I'm not a child growing up in the 21st century, so I admit I can't really understand what it would be like to have the words, to know there were others like me, and to expect society to be able to deal with it. But I do know that denying it even exists is harmful for everyone.

This is all some perverse sport to you lot I feel. You don't seem to be at all interested in anything except having your own prejudices and fears reinforced and confirmed.

No its not a perverse sport to identify that there have been concerns about how trans ideology erases the visibility, independence and agency of lesbians to assert their own sexual boundaries.

Nor is a perverse sport to point out why people like the webberleys who seek to erode or bypass medical ethics, medical accountability and safeguarding really isn't always in the best interests of people who are trans themselves who are quite frankly being exploited in some cases.

When the arguments you use to defend the webberleys consist of nonsense about left handed people, sweeping bollocks about fwr hating all trans whilst you hypocritically say you dont represent all trans people as one blob, crap about section 28 which you and then simultaneously say that people really really need their drugs and will be so desperate they will buy it off the dark web yet they aren't addicted then maybe the problem is your argument being that weak that it falls apart if its remotely questioned.

You don't care about young girls going on puberty blockers. You just want your hormones. As as long as you can get yours you'll say or support anything to justify it.

The conversation has finally come around to talking about why there is such a high spike in the number of girls seeking gender reassignment. As it should a long time ago. And how there are certain medical ethics questions about this (see current court case) and why we should probably do some research into whats happening. And why the pattern looks an awful lot like social contagion akin to anorexia in young girls. We need to explore why there is such a sex based difference in the age profile of men and women who come out as trans and whether this means we should not treat the two groups in a similar fashion being mindful that there is concern that the older male group has something of a conflict of interests with the younger female group because what is good for one group isnt necessarily good for the other.

I dont see why we are talking about section 28 here at all anyway. Being gay or lesbian does not require you to take drugs that do life long damage to your body and take away your fertility. Or go and seek out dodgy spanish based clinics.

Please stop using gays and lesbians as a shield and a trojan horse to remove medical safeguarding and ethics when it comes to the health of children.

Not only is that insulting and frankly offensive to the number of gay and lesbians (and indeed straight people) who actively campaigned against section 28 but do think there is an issue over consent and issues being discussed with children who dont yet have the capacity to understand what their sexuality is at such young ages and are being asked to make life changing descions in the absence of evidence that says these drugs will improve the quality of their life in the long term.

You are conflating two different things to try and win an argument. And once again, your argument is a pile of bollocks based on straw man arguments. Being gay or lesbian is not being trans. Each position has its on unique issues and has to be addressed as such. And indeed has to win its own battles on merit rather than cashing in on others hard fought victories (often at their expense).

This is all some perverse sport to you lot I feel. You don't seem to be at all interested in anything except having your own prejudices and fears reinforced and confirmed.

None of us think this is 'sport'. I am appalled that children are being told that their perfectly healthy bodies are 'wrong' and they need correcting. I want to see those children taught that their bodies are fine the way they are, and that they can accept themselves as who they are, and they don't need to change their bodies to fit in with what some narrow minded people think they should be like.

Datun made a point about waiting lists that could have been lifted straight out of Section 28, I responded to it with a point about social acceptance, not propaganda, being the cause of increased demand.

Why do you think so many more children are identifying as transgender then? And what does it mean to be a 'transgender child'?

Do you believe that children are literally 'born in the wrong body'? If so, this is a terrible thing to happen to them, and we should be investigating why it's happening, shouldn't we? Because a lifetime of being a medical patient and having to take medication for life as well as having numerous operations which historically have had a very high failure rate is not a good outcome for any child, is it?

Or is transgenderism something else? Perhaps it's a feeling of disgust and revulsion at one's own sexed body. But if this is happening more and more, surely we should be investigating why, and trying to find ways for the children who suffer in this way to come to terms with the bodies they have.

Or is it something else? If so, what?

Datun made a point about waiting lists that could have been lifted straight out of Section 28, I responded to it with a point about social acceptance, not propaganda, being the cause of increased demand. You tell me what I say doesn't have anything to do with anything b/c it's not about how horrible Dr.Webberley is or whatever. Is this 'civil'?

This is all some perverse sport to you lot I feel. You don't seem to be at all interested in anything except having your own prejudices and fears reinforced and confirmed.

Well we need to remember medical treatment has “helped thousands of trans people” even though the evidence is showing that their mental health is no better overall. And we need to remember that puberty blockers “improve the mental health of adult trans people” even though the published study actually showed adult trans people who have been on puberty blockers were much more likely to have been hospitalised for a suicide attempt in the last 12 months compared to those who hadn’t been on puberty blockers. It’s almost as if the actual outcomes don’t matter...

So yeah, good on the Webberleys for putting trans people’s health and welfare first...

I say that as an out and proud left hander whose body is remarkably unchanged as a result of that fact, strangely enough.

...oh. yeah.

Kerrrchiinnng.

Yes I did forget the intensely painful orgasms for females on testosterone, the 46 fold increase risk of breast cancer for males on oestrogen, the impact on cognitive development for those who don’t go through puberty. Also should have mentioned the complications arising from surgery - the creation of an impression of a vagina using bowel tissue and all the lifelong complications from that (infection, need for dilatation, poor wound healing etc etc), ditto an attempt to form an impression of a penis from the muscles of the forearm. Does being out and proud as a left hander result in surgery?

Does being able to confidently come out and proud as left handed as a child in the modern age mean they end up infertile with no sexual function? Otherwise I’m struggling to see the comparison.

But yeah, I totes get the connection between left-handed people and suspended doctors prescribing drugs to kids.

As I say, the left hand bullshit is a strawman to distract us from the principles and importance of medical ethics and safeguarding. The conversation should ALWAYS focus on this first. Not bollocks about identity.

This subject is about the need for safeguarding and ethical practice in medicine.

Its not about how many left handed people there are nor even how many trans people there are.

Its about how drugs need to be controlled and prescribed in a way that does no harm.

Withholding treatment on the basis of concerns over ethics and safety is upholding the principle of 'first do no harm' so remains the default position for ANY medical condition where concerns arise...

We don't just give out painkillers because people ask for them or however desparate people are for them, for good reason. Cos ethics and safeguarding.

Actually, it seems people are saying that there IS more left handed people.... it isn’t that they are allowed to be ‘themselves’.

My point was that there aren't any more or less left-handed people in the world, they just aren't actively supressed any more like they were. It is safe to be an out-n-proud lefty now. It's not so different for trans people, quite possibly gay people also. It counters Datun's assertion that the Evil Trans Agenda is transing children to create a huge Trans Army to take over the world or whatever.
Duh...