Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

the services run by the NHS have fallen short of its own regulations.

The waiting lists are appalling, that is true.

Liz Truss announced new clinics. I doubt it'll happen quickly because there are not staff for them. It is interesting that this new, and growing field of medicine has such challenges attracting staff.

I suspect the reason for that is that people trained in critical thinking look at the way GICs operate and opt to work elsewhere.

As a counterpoint though, the only reason this company is relevant (and regardless of its motive, whether money or helping), is because of the fact that the services run by the NHS have fallen short of its own regulations.

The demand has has increased faster than the NHS, research, and safe methods can ever have hoped to have matched, and they have also been restricted in what can be researched by the affirmation model.

I am always up for considering the opposing points of view Fardalen but I can't help wondering in this case, if there hadn't been such a sustained recruitment drive from certain organisations over recent years. Followed by encouraging children (and adults) to self-diagnose into medical treatment without considering any alternative, there might not be such demand for the NHS services and then the current capacity would be acceptable.

Many of GenderGP's patients (as I understand) are there because their GPs have refused to give them powerful life changing drugs on demand. There appears to be a sensible reason for that.

I realized that I quoted from the adult services.

"NHS England has explored whether it would be appropriate to prescribe cross sex
hormones to gender variant young people below 16 years of age. Given the very limited
evidence (including from other countries) about the effects and harms of prescribing
cross sex hormones to young people under 16 years, the policy stipulates that young
people should be aged around 16 years to receive a prescription for these drugs. "

Quite right that GenderGP should follow regulations such as these... however I would also point out that, given how distressing Gender dysphoria is, that more research should be done in regards to this so that help can be given (EFFICIENTLY AND IN A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME!!) whether with medications or help with their mental health.

Edit: my next paragraph got a little over the top 'guilt trip' and 'preachy' so I deleted it. I'm done this time sorry.

First of all I'd like to apologize in advance for voicing my opinion in a place that is not really the place to do so, but things are a little tense at the moment and I'd like to just add a couple of ideas for thought.

I understand that the negativity here directed at GengerGP is with children's best interest at heart and fully agree that GenderGP as a whole has made a lot of decisions that call into question its credibility.

As a counterpoint though, the only reason this company is relevant (and regardless of its motive, whether money or helping), is because of the fact that the services run by the NHS have fallen short of its own regulations.

"Provide a timely and sustainable service for adults with gender dysphoria that
meets the needs of the population, and incorporates the views of individuals."

Taken directly from the NHS services. If they can't even follow their own regulations, what else could be expected but for desperate people AND parents to seek alternate means.

Rather than attacking the company, the boards should have been encouraged to work with them as an alternative means, as this would not only provide a private (and very affordable) option for people, but would have relieved some of the pressure off the NHS services AND could have been monitored more closely. This cooperation could have also ensured a more secure and reliable screening process which means that children who needed the service would have more options and those who didn't could have had safety nets to catch it before hand.

Sorry about the wall of text, I just really needed to say my piece. Thanks if you read it.

In Mermaids case I assume it's because if SG ever paused and thought for one minute that there had been an alternative path to the one she purused, it would be hard to live with yourself

And Mermaids would have no reason to exist, at least not in their current incarnation. Perhaps they would have to re-brand as “helping GNC children to be happy in their sex”
But this doesn’t require any drugs does it?

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources

And it has been 'dragged' away from the scientific profession who would also like to bring light to the subject by having their research shut down and defunded. Why? In case the research provides facts that will create discussion and challenge that which has been deemed as unchallengeable. As has robust and repeatable medical studies.

I am all for supporting any initiative by anyone who is keen for this to happen with the view of providing improved care knowing that that care may involve a greater focus on watch and wait rather than increasing the pressure to transition teenagers based on mature aged transitioner experiences (and frankly, who may have a very biased view of what transition means as they may be a totally different demographic and have significantly different experiences causing their own GD).

Are you?

and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion, for fair reasons or foul, which is creating more problems than it solves. yes and without having allowed proper debate and research, it now seems that in all the reverse ferreting and 'we didn't actually mean that!' an even more confused cohort of young teenagers are being left behind. What would you solution be here? Since you are a 'Daddy', what do you propose?

I am open to suggestions.

Excellent. Let's have them instead of being a constant pusher of shame.

They're not different children. They're the same children. Keira Bell was a trans child. She has said that nothing would have convinced her otherwise. And the doctors who treated her were also convinced she was a trans child. But now, you'd say she wasn't a trans child because she's detransitioned.

There are probably many others who remain 'transitioned' and submit to the sunken costs fallacy.

In Mermaids case I assume it's because if SG ever paused and thought for one minute that there had been an alternative path to the one she purused, it would be hard to live with yourself.

I agree with gardenbird . Why do these organisations immediately jump to affirmation and the medical path? Why did the defence yesterday say (according to one of the live tweeters) the only treatment for a GD 10 year old is the medical path? If any of these people really cared about these children, particularly as we have seen the recent swing to adolescent girls who did not show signs of gender distress in childhood, they would be pushing for the medical path to be the absolute last resort.

Why don’t they push for better overall mental health care, for exploring any underlying issues before affirmation to see if alleviating those alleviates the gender distress/dysphoria? Why don’t they explore coping mechanisms for gender distress/dysphoria? Why are GIDS sessions focussed on assessment rather than therapy? How many of these children have their gender distress made worse because they have self diagnosed and have decided that PBs and/or cross sex hormones are the only solution- because they’ve been told this on social media?

We all know why- it’s because anything other than unquestioning affirmation is considered conversion therapy in this absolutely messed up situation we’ve ended up in so most therapist won’t work from a place of curiosity, but instead affirm.

It’s an utter disgrace how these charities have behaved, pushing one approach, one solution as the only acceptable path while scaring the living daylights out of parents with warnings of suicide risk if they don’t affirm without question.

I'd be inclined to give a little more credibility to the 'we care about our patients' claims of Gender GP, Mermaids etc if they had taken even one tiny opportunity to further the understanding of trans.

They have perfect access to people who can give them the answers and they are not just not doing the studies themselves, but they are actively preventing others from doing them. Why are they not strengthening the diagnostic process with the aim of 0% regret/detransitioners, why are they not looking at the long term effects so that people have a proper idea of what they are signing up for? It might help people make a different decision about treatment options if they had truthful,information about the consequences of the medical route.

These organisations have so much funding - why are they not using it for the good of their 'community'? They have spent £100s of thousands on 'education' to 'prevent bullying' - but none of what they are doing seems to be materially improving life and outcomes for the trans community.

I would suggest that these orgs are not remotely interested in the wellbeing of trans people. As someone wise said, 'follow the money'.

But we are the only group that can cleanly empathise with what an actual trans child feels, if not what a confused or impressionable (or deceitful) cs child feels. We feel their impotent distress when their care is withdrawn or threatened. We, just as much as you, are "thinking of the children", albeit different children.*

None of this solves the fundamental problem of "How do we know this child is really trans?" but this question is being dragged away from the medical profession, who have been largely successful in answering it when they have the time and resources, and into the dreaded Court of Public Opinion, for fair reasons or foul, which is creating more problems than it solves. We are in a situation where we see each other as a threat to children, and we are both right. I am open to suggestions.

They're not different children. They're the same children. Keira Bell was a trans child. She has said that nothing would have convinced her otherwise. And the doctors who treated her were also convinced she was a trans child. But now, you'd say she wasn't a trans child because she's detransitioned.

And the medical profession is not largely successful at distinguishing between 'really trans' and 'not really trans' as we see when someone like Keira detransitions. That's because the diagnosis is built on shrugs and stereotypes rather than objective criteria. It's insane to prescribe strong irreversible medical treatment for life to a child for a condition which can't even be described, let alone diagnosed.

My suggestion is to stop medicating children for an undiagnosable condition. This doesn't affect your right as an adult to modify your body.

I'd like to see you debate with James Morton, Red Toothbrush.

You are so articulate, I get stuck with the rage that my rights have been given away and that my daughter will not enjoy the rights which were hard won for the safety, dignity and privacy of all female people.

Plus the whole homophobia - it's just outrageous.

That shrug is very vocal and does a whole lot of talking.

We are asking for appropriate justification for the medicalisation of children. A shrug doesn’t cut it funnily enough.

A shrug isn't going to cut it in court, like yesterday, certainly.

Also i'd put there there are two distinct groups in terms of age and sex.

Both are being lumped together in a way which serves one group to the detriment of the other which is much of the problem.

Until this is exploitation is highlighted and the hijacking of the gay and lesbian cause is exposed for the harm its doing to that community then there is going to be a huge ongoing issue that MUST be addressed and can not be ignore.

Thats hardly what im told i believe in that bollocks above.

Imagine that in another scenario.

Yes.... imagine teenagers bypassing NHS services that are, we are told, offering superior care for treatments touted via the internet.

An internet full of glamorized successes and telling each and every one of them that the drugs need to be taken NOW or it will be too late. That people standing in their way (their parents) are haters and uninformed. That everything is so much better after. (And as it may be testosterone, it will feel gooood to start with).

An internet that allows a doctor under review to continue to practice and prescribe treatments for delivery.

Yes.... we deserve our beration because we are not open minded.

Its funny this particular thread is about access to drugs.

And that seemingly means advocating for access to drugs at all costs even if this means that children are harmed in the process as the priority is making sure all the adults who want the drugs get the drugs regardless of the consequences and whether they might be at risk if they take those drugs.

Imagine that in another scenario.

And we are not 'open minded'. Cos thats obviously what its all about.

Its revealling and i'll refer back to the cognitive dissonance on addiction.

I take HRT prescribed originally by a menopause clinic (I have an unusually late menopause) but wanted an alternative when NHS supply was disrupted. No online pharmacy would supply, even with my GP's knowledge, simply because of my age (over 60).

I've been puzzled as to how people get hormones online, but now I have a better idea.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't even bother calling out the half-baked opinions or biased statistics of dubious origins that i see on this site, or the tower of cards you build from them

Im sorry. Could me point me to the direction where anyone who has posted in response to you on this thread has done that, cos looking at present company i dont see anyone who has indulged in some of the bullshit that i dont like on FWR. I see some of the better more reasonable posters here who are simply better at cutting through the crap.

Oh and i forgot to mention how women can use the word woman anymore because its offensive but no one is taking apart the word man.

Why is that?

Lets be honest womens life experience isnt important. And once theyve had children they are definitely past their usefulness so should just shut the fuck up and suck it up.

Cos thats what your 'ted talk' really says.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Thats all very nice.

Now can we talk about why Stonewall has abandoned gays and lesbians in changing its definition of trans to gender rather than sex, and why this is so huge in its impact. Can we talk about why Stonewall is seeking to remove sex based right protection from woman - particularly where exemptions are allowed for changing, shared accommodation, and domestic violence shelters where we have very vulnerable women. Then can we talk about how Stonewall changed the definition of trans to include not just those suffering from gender dysphoria but also men who like to cross dress and have no intention of taking drugs or having hormones. Then can we talk about why the definition of being a woman is being removed from women to be a feeling not a biological reality when women face discrimination on the basis of their sex rather than gender and how women can not just identify out of their oppression. Then can we talk about why JKRowling has been demonised for raising many of these points by people who haven't even had the courtesy to read what she's written because theyve been told shes a bigot and they are prepared to accept this on face value because they are oh so openminded. Or talk about the abuse of detransitioners you completely deny is happening cos youve got your eyes wide open there. Or perhaps why women on here have been demonised as bigoted about their concerns regarding 'affirmation only pathways' for children and how experimental drugs have been used on children which you, yourself have indulged in.

Maybe after women are actually considered and listened to rather than talked over and dismissed i'll take the comment of how we are close minded rather than being shat on from a great height so that older male transitioners can get what they want without realising that its not up to woman and homosexuals to give up their protections and that sex must remain visible and sexist bullshit gender must not tske over.

Ultimately it does come back to the problem that effeminate men are not taken seriously and are ridiculed by society and that plays into power dynamics and long term psychological issues.

This is all at the expense of other vulnerable groups and frankly thats not ok.

So dont fucking lecture me in a bloody patronising way about how im not open minded. When lobby groups are actively trying to walk over children and safeguarding to achieve their goals i dont have a lot of time for the sheer magnitude of the hypocrisy tbh.

If there's one thing ive learned its its rare you come across some fully immersed in trans dogma who can make an argument which get much past the word I or my.

We share society. Everyone who is vulnerable has a right to be protected and that means balancing needs. And priortising children over everyone else.

Yes the left hand comment is so revealing.

Apparently empathising with children's impotent distress, whilst explaining why there are more and more of them.

There should be fewer.