Times: Chemist sells hormones for kids online

Pharmacy that home-delivered puberty blockers to transgender children put patients at risk, regulator says

Clear Chemist pharmacy dispensed puberty blockers using online prescriptions
It used private clinic GenderGP, not subject to UK regulatory requirements

Clinic was founded by Helen Webberley, who was fined in 2018 for running an unlicensed transgender clinic from her home in Wales

Regulator GPC blasted Liverpool pharmacy for 'serious system-wide failures'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8894267/Pharmacy-home-delivered-puberty-blockers-transgender-children-patients-risk.html

I'm waiting for my email from HQ to find out exactly what the issue was with it.

I missed it and am dying of curiosity now!

Heat seeking missile

Gosh. That was quick.

I was so careful too.

Oh, I think we understand you. And I agree.

Obviously I wish I could be more clear what I mean by the above. But I can't on here.

There isn't anything malicious in this lack of understanding. I doubt its entered the heads of a lot.

I quite agree, but it is very illustrative of their male privilege.

@Fardalen

Do you have any insight, evidence or even an opinion, as to why so many children, especially girls, are identifying as transgender? What is it that causing gender dysphoria in so many children?

Just thinking on here, when males transition they should read up on risks or be told by their doctors for whats relevant to them.

But in fairness to them they don't actually have any reason to read up on the same for females transitioning nor children.

It strikes me that if you are advocating for drugs for different interest groups you do need to have awareness of this information and where there is weakness in data. But maybe this is something thats simply overlooked by many as the assumption is made that 'if its ok for me, it has to ok for others'. Except it might not be as each separate interest group has very different treatment in practice.

Just as we see in general medicine in every other field, womens' bodies are either overlooked as being different or simply treated as 'small men' which we aren't.

This lack of awareness of how research in womens health lags so far behind men is a problem across the board and certainly isn't restricted to trans medicine.

This is always irrelevant to a transwomans lived experience as its not something they have to deal with. They still remain the default on which studies are much more common and have larger sources of information from which to draw.

There isn't anything malicious in this lack of understanding. I doubt its entered the heads of a lot.

But neither is the desire for proper research and follow up studies on transmen and children from women. Its a really important factor that needs to be considered by all in all situations.

How do we change that?

Whatever way you look at it, women and girls get the very worst of this, don't they? One trans man's description on twitter of the uterine pain they experienced when orgasming while on hormones, and the effect it had on their relationship and partner, was frankly harrowing,

It also states that deepening voice is a myth?!

Well, obviously they haven’t talked with some of the female detransitioners then. The anecdotal evidence seems to be rather overwhelming in those coming off ‘t’.

Especially fact 2 about levels of testosterone in Women. Not sure where this article gets it's info but I use the site a lot for reliable articles for uni.

I wonder what that classes as 'masculization'?

2.3. Myth: Testosterone masculinizes females

Although pharmacologic doses of T and supra-pharmacological doses of T used to treat female to male transgender patients, may result in increased facial hair growth, hirsutism, and slight enlargement of the clitoris; true masculinization is not possible.

Of course it does not make you grow a penis or anything, but..the results I have seen on many many transmen can be quite 'impressive', if looking at aesthetics alone? This appears to be saying the only real difference is more facial hair and a bit bigger clit? I would disagree with this from evidence seem with my own eyes. It also states that deepening voice is a myth?! Again, I know only 2 transmen on T persoally but both of them had a voice drop moment, like teenage boys do.

The whole thing seems to be a bit of an excercise in 'no damage here' though, which is, patently untrue.

Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though

Which is almost the entire problem. Its experimentations, but not even that as seemingly no followups occur so its not even able to be pushed as experiments to see whats actually best, just an endless experiment with no checks or balances?! There is quite a bit of evidence that lupron and such cause health issues in grown women, so why they would not affect children in such a way, I don't know.

No. Its got fuck all to do with whats best for the parent. Its ONLY about whats best for the child...

Quite, the parent shouldn't enter this at all, it should be ALL about whats best for the child/patient, surely?!

The fact we 'don't know' and you still think the service is good because you as an adult can get what you want but you haven't really given much thought as to the consequences for transmen or children and have provided studies which lack any evidence at all for these groups in 'proof' that theres no harm being done really isn't a great look.

I don't want to be confrontational about this, but can you see why I've got concerns here? Can't you?

We need better than this. This isn't good enough. We can't say this is a good outcome when we don't know what the outcomes are.

Fardalen that study on bone density is of no relevance to the treatment of children as it deals purely with adults. There is a huge difference between the retention of bone mineral density in adults who have been through puberty, and preventing the build up of bone density during the stage in a child’s development during which it normally vastly increases. Puberty is crucial to increases bone density and delayed puberty decreases bone density. Decreased bone density is not a good thing.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101
A post on + and - on Blockers for those interested. It tries to take a neutral stance. Basically boils down to 'we don't know' again though. So... won't really add anything to the discussion. But there if you're interested.

Each decision should absolutely be what is best for both individual child and parent.

Each individual child AND parent?

No. Its got fuck all to do with whats best for the parent. Its ONLY about whats best for the child...

Why is it anything to do with whats best for the parent? Why is that relevant at all?

And this apparently passes as 'research'.

I'm not even being selective in my copying and pasting!

I am reading it thinking, 'is this some kind of sick joke?'

I remember reading about the health of one of the Soviet era female olympians in an Eastern European country. Maybe a swimmer come to think of it. They were told that to compete they had to take supplements (which were testosterone) and the effects later in life were debilitating. I believe in her case, she was not told what it was that she was even taking.

Also both studies are about cross sex hormones.

Not puberty blockers. So we don't know how there might be consequences from taking puberty blockers that might be a serious consideration when it comes to children.

We also don't know what happens to children who take puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones and whether that causes unique issues.

Which is kind of important.

I can't find the study about lifespan but you might be interested in: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121. Especially fact 2 about levels of testosterone in Women. Not sure where this article gets it's info but I use the site a lot for reliable articles for uni.

I also missed a post about orgasms. I'm not sure about F2M, but I know for a fact it's possible for M2F.

RedToothBrush

Jesus

We don't know

We don't care

We didn't bother checking really

Its only females.

Depressing as fuck.

^ gardenbird48

I am always up for considering the opposing points of view Fardalen but I can't help wondering in this case, if there hadn't been such a sustained recruitment drive from certain organisations over recent years. Followed by encouraging children (and adults) to self-diagnose into medical treatment without considering any alternative, there might not be such demand for the NHS services and then the current capacity would be acceptable.^

You’re right. Without the likes of Mermaids advising all and sundry to ‘get a referral to the Tavi organised now, in case you need it’, the waiting lists wouldn’t be in such a desperate state. Their push to get happy non-conforming kids with no dysphoria onto the medication pathway ASAP, no questions asked is....baffling?