Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

I don't understand. Legally trans men and women have a default right to use a public toilet that matches their gender identity, not their biological gender. As far as I'm aware this has been the case since at least 2010. Has this changed?

That was not and is not the case. That would amount to self-id, which is not in legal in the UK.

If trans women do have the right since 2010 to use the single sex toilet of the opposite sex, does that extend to locker rooms? Hospital wings? Sports? If not, why not?

I don't understand. Legally trans men and women have a default right to use a public toilet that matches their gender identity, not their biological gender. As far as I'm aware this has been the case since at least 2010. Has this changed?

Are you asking me that if an individual woman asserts that due to her religious beliefs, both gender neutral toilets and single sex toilets that allow access to trans women are both unacceptable options, you're asking me whether I would side with her on that? Well no, I don't think that it's fair and also don't think it would stand legally. It may be a grey area in law because it's obviously a direct conflict of interest but if you're asking me personally, someone's gender identity would come for me above someone's extreme religious beliefs. And I say extreme because like I said, as far as I'm aware it has been a long time that trans women have been allowed to access women's toilets and I have never heard before of religious women en masse being unable to use public toilets due to this fact.

I do think you are hanging on to a very very specific and tiny issue that clearly to you seems to both prove that I am some sort of misogynist and also proves that trans women are a huge threat to women's rights due to this toilet use. Like the majority of women refuse to use toilets on religious beliefs.

Very true, but genderism is based on sex stereotypes which IMO puts it ideologically on the (religious) right. It has emboldened people who would rather "trans away the gay".

I'm not convinced that it's particularly of the right or left in any traditional sense of those terms. The fact is that most people on both the left and right think there are some natural behavioural level differences between men and women, and accept some level of cultural expression of sex. At the same time, most people on both the right and left don't see those as anything like wholly determinate or meaning men and women are wholly different. The groups that see very stark differences aren't all that large or mainstream.

I dispute your repeated assertion that trans women have the right to use the toilets which align with their gender identity.

Nevertheless, to engage with your further point, In that circumstance you think the woman should be the one to make the sacrifice and not the trans woman?

@MichelleofzeResistance my compassion does of course extent to religious people, even though I myself am against religious practices that are detrimental to women by being segregative or otherwise misogynistic.

I was staying fact, not my opinion.. A poster said that their evidence against be8ng inclusive of trans women was that they knew a Muslim woman who could not use gender neutral toilets for religious reasons. Given the context of the discussion, I took this to mean that the posters point was she could not use gender neutral toilets in case a trans woman used them too.

My point was that by that logic, the Muslim woman would also not be able to use toilets designated for women because trans women already have the right to enter toilets which align with their chosen gender identity. I was not arguing against gender neutral toilets at all. The poster said, or implied, that the introduction of gender neutral toilets (presumably again given the context of the conversation) to appease trans women was detrimental to Muslim women. If because of religious reasons it is unacceptable to both create gender neutral toilets and continue to allow transgender women to use female toilets, I would say that it is disproportionately unfair on trans women and therefore felt it was right that the compromise was that the gender neutral toilets did exist. I'm not sure how that equates to me being dispassionate to religious women.

Again though these are incredibly niche and narrow aspects of life with relatively small consequences, and I stand by the belief that if gender neutral public toilets that some very religious individuals refuse to use are one of the reasons to exclude trans women, then I think it is a worthy sacrifice to those women's convenience.

f a Muslim lady cannot use a gender neutral toilet for fear of encountering a trans woman then she cannot use a women's only toilet either because a trans woman still has an equal right to be there.

It's interesting that your passionate engagement with and understanding of the particular issues faced by TW doesn't extend to engaging with or understanding the particular issues faced by some Muslim women. (Or Jewish Orthodox women, Jehovah's Witness women, Roma women, women with a history of rape and trauma, some women with Autism.... etc etc)

The issue is that if a male person needs to use the female space as their alternative to their sex based provision, that female person has no provision. At all. The female provision no longer meets inclusively the needs of all people. So presumably you're ok with the exclusion of those females from any space, and those females suffering the consequences of that exclusion.

I'm not ok with it. I'm not ok with TW being forced to use male spaces that leave them feeling unsafe, their privacy and dignity invaded, to be uncomfortable in a space where people may not respond well to them. AND I extend the exact same standards to female people. My answer would be third gender neutral spaces in addition to female only spaces, because these values and compassions cannot be selectively applied and still mean anything.

Hello @CloudyVanilla I thought the lack of rape threats against me would clearly point to me being male.

I will add: I don't post in this section very often (not my space), but I thank you all for making me think and learn through what is posted here.

When I joined MN I was told to avoid AIBU, The Doghouse and FWR. I looked at FWR and found wonderful women like Dittany and MildlyNarkyPuffin who were welcoming to this ignorant oik. This is my favourite part of MN and I read it every day. I might only post once a month but I am open to learning from women. Feminism is theirs, not mine. All I can do is stand alongside and cheerlead.

I do swerve The Doghouse still, but The Litter Tray has #Olly and #Paws. And other gorgeous felines. #crazycatman

It's true that the connection is not to transgender people but to the theory currently used by many trans activists (gender identity school). But that theory is problematic because it erases the identity of those who are subject to such horrors.

Women are not victimising trans people.
The article is not accurate.

I am also concerned about that stuff. Infinitely more so than the trans debate. Those things have nothing to do with the trans debate. Yet all that is ever posted on here is stuff about trans issues. The irony of telling ME to focus on that instead of the victimisation of trans people...

I am more concerned about the victimisation of women throughout history, continuing into the present day.

Femicide. Sexual violence. Sex-selective abortion. Female infanticide. FGM. Forced marriage. Denial of reproductive rights. The flip-side of that - poor maternity care.

Sort those things out. Create a world where we no longer need sex-segregated spaces, because men have stopped being violent.

Then we'll talk.

Why is wanting women only provision bigotry? Of necessity, it means that in specific circumstances, all men are excluded.

The travails of TW are sad and may well necessitate specific provision. But there is no logical reason for them to access female only provision in those areas specifically set aside for women, because that provision is not based on inner identity, but sex. How is this illogical or unreasonable?

are you saying that trans women through history and the modern day have not been victimised

No, I'm not saying that.

@HecatesHat are you saying that trans women through history and the modern day have not been victimised? I assume that's what you mean when you ask "where's the victimisation?".

I don't even see where debate lies if no one is willing to step away from their lack of acceptance. To you marginilsing an entire community of people based on the actions of the few as justification. In my book that is the definition of bigotry.

I might muster a post or two more but the logic on this thread is full of double think and logical fallacies, anecdotes and what ifs to justify intolerance. I'm still yet to hear any empirically justified arguments as to why it is so important and justified to be so vocally transphobic. Because there aren't any valid arguments to be bigoted, ever.

From the main points by OP:
"Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex."

This is utterly untrue. Women are oppressed first and foremost on the basis of biological sex.

Currently our ability to name the category which consists of female-bodied people (those who will meet sexism and other sex-based ills) is contested by the trans rights activists and their allies.

It will be exceedingly difficult to do feminist work if we cannot name the category of those who are discriminated against sex. This is ironic as sexism and misogyny do not ask for someone's preferred pronouns before choosing their prey so it is not only those who accept the label 'woman' who will be harmed by this.

As far as I can see, the erasure of the female sex and all terms meaning female-bodied people is regarded as an important part of trans rights. I draw the line here concerning my willingness to be kind and inclusive and will not relinquish our ability to define what a biologically female person is.

I can get you the majority of them come from hetero cis men and not some TRA trolls

How do you tell the difference?

@DoctorTwo I'm confused about your point? Are you saying you're right and I'm wrong because there are nasty people on the internet? I've had rape threats like any women, I can get you the majority of them come from hetero cis men and not some TRA trolls