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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Gender Critical = fundamentally right wing (according to Vox)

574 replies

TheRealMcKenna · 29/09/2020 17:34

I know it’s Vox, I know it’s not a ‘reputable’ news source, but this is hilariously bad.

Main points:

  • TERFs calling themselves ‘gender critical’ are akin to white supremacists calling themselves ‘race realists’.
  • Women are oppressed based on gender identity and not biological sex.
  • Most ‘decent’ feminists include trans women in their movement, but a horrid bunch of conservative-allying pro-life supporting homophobic white supremacists don’t.
  • GC feminists Who rely on ‘science’ have abandoned the idea that chromosomes determine sex (this is news to me)
  • GC feminism is mainly a UK phenomenon and is ‘whipped up’ by the horrid Mumsnet site. Everyone else in the world is lovely (apart from those far right pro-life conservatives).
  • GC feminists cite a tiny number of high profile cases to whip up fear and hatred of trans women.
  • GC advocates bully people online, especially on Twitter.
  • GC academics have a terribly large amount of power and influence.

www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

OP posts:
nepeta · 29/09/2020 23:42

@BlackWaveComing

I can't take the critique that feminism is aligned with conservative positions on gender seriously. The accusation is of essentialism - that feminists believe males naturally perform masculinity and females, femininity, and that these roles must be policed and enforced, especially when male is in danger of performing femininity.

It's a stunningly ignorant claim that betrays a complete lack of understanding of the claims feminism makes.

I know someone is either ignorant, or arguing in bad faith, when they claim feminists are essentialists.

I have seen more essentialist thinking from such activist organisations as Mermaids in the past and also from many online trans activists who argue that stereotypes about femininity and masculinity should be used to determine what a woman and a man are.
CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:41

I never said feminism equated to essentialism. I can however see parallels with sex essentialism seen amongst red pill type communities and the lack of tolerance of gender identity when it conflicts with natal sex amongst radical feminists. What I meant by that is when GC feminists say stuff like "slapping on a dress doesn't make you a woman".

Cocothefirst · 29/09/2020 23:41

Anyhow back on topic...

I've seen on Twitter how gender critical feminist are accused of all sorts of nonsense. I've been called a man, a fascist, a nazi, a racist, hateful, ugly, discriminatory, stupid, sexist - all for not kowtowing to the dogma.

This article made me laugh.

BlackWaveComing · 29/09/2020 23:39

@CloudyVanilla

I'm defending women's rights love. Trans women are women.
This isn't the place to shill for males.
Cocothefirst · 29/09/2020 23:39

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nepeta · 29/09/2020 23:37

"These are people lives we are taking about, serious issues of prejudice and discrimination and human rights. "

Indeed, and on both sides of the issue. There are also very serious issues concerning the sudden increase in teenage girls wishing to transition when we have no proper diagnostic method for determining when a person is transgender in the sense that transitioning is the best solution to the dysphoria which might drive it, and so are left with not knowing if some children are given the wrong treatment.

BlackWaveComing · 29/09/2020 23:37

I can't take the critique that feminism is aligned with conservative positions on gender seriously. The accusation is of essentialism - that feminists believe males naturally perform masculinity and females, femininity, and that these roles must be policed and enforced, especially when male is in danger of performing femininity.

It's a stunningly ignorant claim that betrays a complete lack of understanding of the claims feminism makes.

I know someone is either ignorant, or arguing in bad faith, when they claim feminists are essentialists.

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 29/09/2020 23:37

Could you provide a link, please? I can't find what you say is there. Ann Sinnott's judicial review will hopefully clear up the problems in this area caused by misrepresentation of the Equality Act 2010 by the EHRC among others. Would it be their guidance you're referring to? uncommongroundmedia.com/the-2010-equality-act-is-being-undermined-by-official-guidance/

littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 23:37

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CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:36

I'm defending women's rights love. Trans women are women.

Cocothefirst · 29/09/2020 23:34

So much for being the voice of reason...

This is the feminism board. Shilling for men's rights is done elsewhere. As is swearing at other posters.

terryleather · 29/09/2020 23:33

Don't know where that bloody halo came from in my last post btw Blush

CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:32

Love a bit of classic misogynistic gas lighting. I participate in good faith with a community that clearly disagrees with me for pages and pages, and then when I get upset at the absolutely ignorance of a poster just posting solely to make fun of me over an emotive issue without contributing anything to the discussion and I react, suddenly "the mask has slipped".

This mask has not slipped at all. I stand by my views proudly and I will defend myself against sheer horrible ad hominem fuckwittery. These are people lives we are taking about, serious issues of prejudice and discrimination and human rights. I think it should be fucking understandable that some people actually take that seriously.

terryleather · 29/09/2020 23:32

It always goes the same way - they start off fairly reasonably then before you know it they're coming at you like a bag of cocks. Every fucking time. Halo

Thelnebriati · 29/09/2020 23:32

Services that are single sex are not single gender.

wellbehavedwomen · 29/09/2020 23:30

Well, that's a first. Never had a post hidden before! Shame, as it had all those links to hard data which the poster was so anxious to see.

Apparently not so anxious, after all.

littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 23:29

Slipped there big time 😂

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/09/2020 23:28

Peace indeed!

BlackWaveComing · 29/09/2020 23:28

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BlackWaveComing · 29/09/2020 23:26

Right/left are predominantly economic positions. I remain on the left, as I've always been.

Proponents of gender identity seem quite ideologically incoherent to me. They propose conservative ideas around 'natural gender', display authoritarian traits in the prosecution of this idea, and yet rest their rights and choices on concepts of libertarianism.

littlbrowndog · 29/09/2020 23:26

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HecatesHat · 29/09/2020 23:24

@CloudyVanilla

And trust me the vast majority of 10 year olds would understand this issue better than the grown add women on this toxic community. Your obsession with trans women is almost fetish like in nature. All the adversity facing women and all you give a shit about is keeping an already massively persecuted and marginalised group down.

Get over yourself. You think you're the first and only person to justify bigotry with your pretend concerns? You think that people a couple decades ago clutching their pearls at "the gays" and shrieking about how they'd sex up and indoctrinate the kidz weren't spouting the exact same shit you're spouting now? You think you're any fucking different to any community anywhere intent on othering those who they perceive as different to them and wanting the status quo of their subjugation because God forbid YOU with your perfectly heteronormative, conformist ways might have to put up with them being seen as equal to you?

You're nothing new. It's a fucking joke but keep on pretending your'e doing it for all the marginalised women out there.

Makes me sick.

Well that escalated quickly
CloudyVanilla · 29/09/2020 23:22

A simple Google shows me that it absolutely IS the case that trans people can use the toilet of which gender they present. That's on a government guide.

But I'm out.

Peace

FWRLurker · 29/09/2020 23:22

I used to lurk On the red pill and other Extreme MRA forums On Reddit, back when “the redpill” was ascendent And SRS was a thing - these are pre MGTOW days, maybe 10-12 years ago.

Many posters there discussed how the existence Of trans people proved that they had been Right all along about the saliency of gender stereotypes. After all - trans people, just like the MRAs, Know in their hearts that “women are like this, men are like that”. They also thought it was extremely funny and hypocritical that feminists supported trans people given how regressive the whole trans right movement was when it came to gender stereotypes.

When it comes to MRA if A is true is proves them right, if B is true it proves them right. So what I say above proves nothing. If the MRAs on the red pill agreeing that trans people’s identities are “valid” does not make TRAs actually right wing, then neither does your Specific MRA friend “agreeing” With GC feminists that trans women are male make GV feminists right wing.

wellbehavedwomen · 29/09/2020 23:21

@CloudyVanilla

You've also massively extrapolated a lot of that and downright misrepresented a lot of what I said. I never said I valued male feelings more than female feelings. When asking for data or evidence that the social acceptance of trans women would be detrimental to women, I was given an anecdotal example of gender neutral toilets and a Muslim woman. My point was if both being transgender and religion are abstract and debatable ideas, then why is it automatically the right of the religious person to take precedent?

Again, you've said I've dismissed "evidence" but no one has given me ANY evidence. Quite the contrary. I have mentioned that the vast majority of male violence to women is perpetrated by males known to or close to the victim. Trans women are at an even higher risk of this violence. But proportionately it's still a much more pressing issue to you to focus on excluding trans women from environments, many of which they already have a legal right to be in and there is no resulting wealth of evidence that trans women are doing significant harm to women.

I have mentioned that the vast majority of male violence to women is perpetrated by males known to or close to the victim. Trans women are at an even higher risk of this violence.

Why is it, then, that women are murdered by those close to them at a rate of 2 a week in normal times, 5 in lockdown, yet trans women have half the average murder risk? Who determines that trans women face 'an even higher risk of this violence'? How is that violence recorded and reported, and who's to say, as you so confidently do, that it's worse than that against women? 13000 men in jail for sex offences, mostly against women - that's 1 in 2500 men in the population - and yet only 1.5% of the reports of rape made to police ever see charges, far less convictions. Do you really imagine most women report? So where does that blithely confident statement come from? Stonewall? What's the source of your own stats?

One in fifty in the male prison estate identify as trans, as of 2018. In 2016, when the numbers asserting that identity from prison were far lower, 60 transwomen were jailed for sex offending from a population estimated to be 200,000, whereas just 126 women were, from a population of 33 million. Rhona Hotchkiss, who was a prison governor in Scotland, has said that there are now more transwomen in jail there for sex offending than women - NOT because transwomen pose more threat than any other male, but because they pose the exact same threat. Those stats align with the numbers of male sex offenders, when you calculate respective populations. So why are transwomen fine in spaces where women are vulnerable, when other males aren't - and in fact, in the case of prisons, where the United Nations mandates males must not be, as a basic human rights standard for women? What's the difference, from the perspective of women's best interests, instead of focusing on the best interest of the males in the equation?

Male bodies pose a threat to female bodies. Gender identity doesn't alter that. And given gender identity is also both subjective and unprovable, you're saying that women must accept a subset of males as female solely because they say so, and accept an exponentially higher risk rate than that posed by female women. How is that okay? Why are you placing the ease of a small group of male people higher than the safety of a large group of female people?

Of course it's just a small subset of transwomen who pose any sort of risk. It's a small subset of all males. But because we don't know which they are, but we do know women pose a very low risk indeed, we exclude all males from spaces where females are vulnerable, not because we think all men are hideous predators, but because some are, and excluding them means assaults and attacks on women are sharply reduced. Given the risk factor is exactly the same with males, irrespective of how they may identify, just how many women are you prepared to dismiss, as collateral damage? Women already exist who have been harmed in direct consequence of these policies. Why is that not as important? Why are they not as important?

Were you aware that a vast majority of women prisoners are there for property crime, while most men are there for violent offending? That most jailed women have been assaulted and abused by men long before they ever reached a prison, over half in childhood, and that there are huge levels of mental distress already, which mean they are retraumatised by being locked in with males - any males, even the nicest, kindest and most sincere possible - because they know what a female body is, and it's gaslighting to tell them a male is a woman? Same, obviously, in women's shelters and rape crisis support services. Karen Ingala Smith has talked really movingly about that. Why don't you care about those women? Why is your concern focused on people of male biology?

When women understand that 80% of transwomen have no surgery and take no hormones at all, a majority start to say no, they don't want them in spaces where they're vulnerable, and actually come what may, they don't want female sporting competition open to male bodies on a basis of identity - with good reason. If you can't identify sex, and rights based on sex, you can't combat sexism. Misogyny isn't predicated on women's performance of gender. It's because of our sex. And once you start arguing that women have no right to sports or changing rooms or dorms or shelters or refuges of our own, as soon as a male person asserts a claim that a male body is less relevant than a subjective belief to have a feminine soul... then you're focusing on male wants, and dismissing female needs. As has been the case through history. How is that feminism? Clearly, it's not.

I care about all human beings. Everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. I recognise that trans people do face marginalisation, which must be addressed. Transphobia is real, and violently abusive men pose a threat to trans people, men and women alike, as they do women - yet instead of tackling that threat, all the hate is aimed at gender critical women. It's also fairly clear that there is economic disadvantage, as so many seeking a GRC are below the costs threshold (though given the overlap with mental health challenges and autism, it's hard to unpick a multi-factorial, complex picture enough to know that it's mainly down to transphobia... but I am certain that's a factor in too many cases, and in too many lives.) I also think that liberation movements have every right to centre the group they fight for - trans groups do, disability rights orgs do, and feminist orgs should. Yet women are being told it's our job to centre some people born male, even though they pose the same risk to us as any other male, because they're at risk from other males, and assert that their sex isn't relevant, just their belief about themselves. Why is that our responsibility? Why do we have to increase our own risk, and lose our own privacy and spaces, when all properly conducted polling shows that that is not what women want and they do not consent?

Women are also human. Women also matter. Women should have the final say on who gets to share communal changing spaces, and sleeping accommodation, and shelters and counselling support which has been designated single sex. And women should not be shamed for prioritising their own best interests, needs, and rights, in the face of a fullscale demand that they open them up to any male who asserts an unprovable, subjective, wholly personal belief. There is no human right to expose your cock to a group of naked women in a single-sex changing room or shower without their consent - yet that's precisely what's being claimed. It's completely lunatic, frankly.

And finally, your statement that sharing the above has always been the law, and that it has to be decided on a case by case basis when an exemption is applied? That comes from guidance from the EHRC, which they recently had to withdraw due to legal challenge. They aren't empowered to create law at their behest. Yet effectively, that's what they did. A Judicial Review is pending. So no, that's not anything like as clear as you believe it to be.