Do “trans kids” exist?

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

Very well put notbad.

If a person, any person, is displaying signs of GD, meeting the criterion for diagnosis (the effect and intensity of thought and behaviour NOT just the thought/behaviour), it’s not in anyway possible that actually they do suffer from GD?

But a child can only meet the criteria if a clinician agrees that stereotypes for toys and clothes and friendships exist. If a clinician doesn’t believe this, a child can never meet criteria. I’ve seen this in practice. A psychiatrist wrote a girl was showing signs of gender variance by being in “boy’s clothes” ie jeans and boots .

Any diagnosis that relies on whether a clinician agrees with society’s outdated views on toys and clothes isn’t worth shit.

So if you remove that to make it more objective, what are you left with? What makes a child “trans” and how do you assess for it?

@PinkyU

When I say adults I mean not just parents who can sometimes feel powerless to protect their children from this harmful ideology in the face of pressures from social media, schools, health professionals and the all the many various organisations promoting gender ideology.

@NotBadConsidering whilst the behaviours and thoughts listed are a parent of what is considered during assessment, the most important element (as is the case with practically all mental health and neurodevelopmental conditions) is the intensity, rigidity and effect of the thoughts/behaviour.

Again, if you take OCD, every human on the planet has schemas (patterns of behaviour) that could be described as part of the assessment process for OCD, however it is the intensity, rigidity and effect (intrusive thoughts etc) that make the behaviour ACTUALLY part of the criteria for an OCD diagnosis. The same applies to a diagnosis of GD.

Well their health care isn't going to get amy better if drs have to pretend their sex doesn't actually exist , or they are given toxic drugs...

A priori, that's the term my brain's being trying and failing to remember for months!

The "born in the wrong body" idea is predicated on everyone having an a priori understanding of themselves as a sexed individual.

There's precisely zero evidence for this statement, and a veritable mountain to suggest the understanding of oneself as a sexed individual is developed a posteriori; it's very much contingent on the context.

Does Occam’s razor not feature at all?

If a person, any person, is displaying signs of GD, meeting the criterion for diagnosis (the effect and intensity of thought and behaviour NOT just the thought/behaviour), it’s not in anyway possible that actually they do suffer from GD?

I do feel that the assessment process needs to be far more scrupulous when dealing with children/young people with other MH/neurodevelopmental conditions due to an overarching tendency to rigid, intense or intrusive thoughts, however I don’t think that any of the above should exclude a person from accessing assessment.

Children and young people with as d’s or LD’s are far more likely to die of very preventable conditions (both biologically and mental ill-health) due to not being given the same access and considerations as their NT peers.

I posted this the other day. The only way a child can receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is if you believe in stereotypes. These are the criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children:

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
• A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

You need 6 out of these 8. But 4 of these can be deleted if you remove the stereotype bullshit.

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

So when people say they have a “trans kid” what they mean is they have a kid who probably expresses criteria 1, 7 and/or 8 and then has external views put upon them to meet criteria.

It’s utter bullshit.

There are kids who develop gender dysphoria, certainly.

"Trans" is an identity though, and gender dysphoria isn't a prerequisite for it. It's a label applied by adults to justify and excuse a child's "deviant" behaviour (see: Mermaids' back catalogue).

If we're working within the confines of the gender-identity concept, then kids can't be trans because they haven't developed and settled into an adult identity yet. There's a parallel with being gay - we don't expect kids to know their adult sexuality aged three either.

If we're using trans as a shorthand for transsexual, then a child could only be considered trans if they've had surgery and hormones - ethical minefield, obviously, and not applicable to pre-pubertal kids (yet, thank fuck).

If we're using trans as a shorthand for "someone who transgresses gender stereotypes" then most kids qualify at some point in their life (mine definitely does), but this definition is a bit niche these days.

According to gender identity theory though, yes, some babies are born trans. It's one of the clues that the mainstream interpretation of the theory is utter bollocks.

Because other things also feature.

Abuse, trauma, social contagion, online

Autism
Lds

@DaisiesandButtercups how do you explain the children of extremely GC parents coming out as trans?

Surely these children are the least likely to have been so indoctrinated by stereotypes?

(Also MBP is no longer a term used, it hasn’t been for some time)

I never understood how that blatant piece of utter idiocy got past anyone. I very much doubt children under two even know what a "dress" is or how it differs from a dressing gown or long coat

I never understood how sensory issues eveb with nt children arent considered. I mean if you are hit you will undo jkir clothes.

Of something stabs itches or annoys you you rip it out/off

The only message it sends is " I dont wanna wear this"

And then no ones allowed to be surprised many turn out to be autistic...

I was just reading this article from 2019 again, think it was linked somewhere on here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-47360102

It's so sad. A nine-year-old child is described as wearing loads of makeup and dreaming about one day becoming a mother "and getting married to the man of her dreams". As if these are obviously the things that all nine-year-old girls aspire to. It's such regressive female stereotyping and homophobia. Healthy, happy nine-year-olds of both sexes shouldn't have to worry about this stuff, they should just be allowed to build dens and mess around with their friends.

I suppose it could be argued (using pomo's own arguing style) that 'trans' is a social construction and that some parents for some reasons choose to perform it with their child. The child has less social agency because they are a child than the parent, and if there are outside forces willing to encourage all this 'subversion' of norms ...

unpoppering a baby grow is making a dress

I never understood how that blatant piece of utter idiocy got past anyone. I very much doubt children under two even know what a "dress" is or how it differs from a dressing gown or long coat.

My daughter only learnt she was something called "a girl" when she was about 3, and she only had a slight understanding of what that meant. I don't think she realised she was the same biological sex as me until she developed the capacity to process more abstract concepts.

And how would she know? From a toddler's point of view, all they realise is that they are different to adults because adults are bigger, taller and look after them. They may realise there is a difference between adult men and women, but how do they relate that back to themselves? They don't look like their adult parent, be that parent male or female.

From what I've observed, a child only seems to begin to recognise biological difference over two and a half when they come across other children who are labelled in the opposite way to them in a care-giving scenario: ie. a sibling is born, or they have begun to use the toilet at nursery or pre-school and notice some children don't urinate the same way.

Surely you can see though, it’s not the thought or behaviour that denotes a person with GD (or any other type of MH condition), it’s the intensity and effect of the thought or behaviour.

Comparing your niece/nephew/toddler/next door neighbour who would not meet the criteria for GD isn’t helpful. It’s like the people who like their tins facing outwards or their Christmas tree decorated neatly, who label themselves as “OCD”, it takes away from what is a life restricting awful condition.

My DS was a penguin for an uncomfortably long time. I had to explain to reception teacher that he liked making supposed penguin noises and walk like one. He used to be lots of different animals but stuck at penguin for his final and long lasting incarnation. I think he thinks he’s an adolescent boy now (and still can’t swim!)

Adults did not tell their children the truth and help them accept what cannot be changed

I often wonder in what other ways the word "no" was avoided.

From the people we have seen/read about the one thing they all seem to have in common is a hufe sense if entitlement and no concept of boundries, and the word no brings on very toddler like tantrums and accustions of being attacked.

Being allowed to believe this does seem to lead to certain behaviours later on in life possibly avoided by the use of the word no.

Children are children and they should be allowed to develop who they are safely without adults medicalising their process of growing up.

Vegan cats exist. Don't they?

Daisies I've often thought that MBP could be a factor as well as good old homophobia.

Kids with rigid ideas of gender roles exist.

Autistic and LGB kids exist.

Kids with dysphoria exist.

That's as much as anyone can really say.

Thank you for the link.

I'm reminded of that old saying: A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

I'd love to see a mermaid backpedalling.

Hilarious.

No.

Adults did not tell their children the truth and help them accept what cannot be changed. Adults imposed sexist stereotypes on their children. Adults wish they had a daughter rather than a son or vice versa. Adults obsessively seek attention or have Munchausen’s by proxy. Adults want children to be labelled and medicated to justify their own political agenda.

Religious people exist, even if god doesn't. The idea that not believing in a gendered soul is denying the existence of trans people is like saying that being an atheist means you think there's no religious people.

So trans kids exist, but the underlying explanation is not that this is a genuine, innate, fixed personality - it's that something is happening to them, things they are being told or exposed to. I can see the childish logic in "pink is for girls, I like pink, so I'm a girl." The fault lies with society and it's pink messages and the parents or peer group.