Do “trans kids” exist?

What Daisies said

Trans children exist in the same way Christian children or Muslim children exist.

As in, no child will come out of the womb reciting the shahada, or claiming Christ as their Lord and Saviour. They are taught these things through experiences filtered by their families and wider communities.

No child is born in the wrong sexed body. They are taught by their families and wider communities that each sex has a limited acceptable role, and they try and make sense of these messages.

Tyro

That sentiment is reflected here:

A few painful and difficult things have happened to me that I think were behind me wanting to be a man and not be a woman. I know I was not in the wrong, but they are things I can’t talk about publicly. What I know now is that transitioning wasn’t the way to deal with those things. You go to the gender clinic and within a couple of months you’re on testosterone. The psychiatrist said I was trans. I thought if they prescribed me testosterone then I must be trans. Aside from general questions, no one explored if there were other issues or challenged me.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/25f95e06-bf8f-11ea-9ea2-5a548b3aebca?shareToken=75babf4a323b8c27a8e0f256dd410655

It’s a very dangerous path to go down saying that a child is trans just because they say so. It’s effectively what my daughter’s school did and would still be doing if it weren’t for us. I don’t think they are even listening to the reasons why we and her therapist think affirmation is damaging to her- conversations emphasise doing what the child wants.

Unfortunately we (society) somehow have fallen into a way of thinking that “trans” is just an identity, no big deal, just accept it at face value... This is a very light and easy way to ignore the complex underlying reasons a young person might feel this way.

The short answer is no.

This "trans kid" whose story is being promoted by the Biden campaign seems typical, sadly.
southfloridagaynews.com/National/joe-biden-s-as-you-are-campaign-maps-hundreds-of-lgbt-acceptance-stories.html (watch the video)

I don't understand how people can not see what's happening in cases like this. It's all so regressive.

There’s no such thing as trans children and the shocking thing is the psychological community have known this for a long time. Trans kids were originally hypothesised in the 70s as the explanation for trans adults but this was debunked in the 80s. Trans adults report they used to be trans kids but this was found to be untrue (and probably post hoc justification). “Trans kids” either grow up to be straight and gender non conforming or gay adults. They don’t grow up into trans adults. I have no idea why all of this research was thrown out of the window but it was probably due to parents preferring a trans child to a gay one.

Isn't disassociation with the body a common response to CSA?

I wonder how many schools have ended up accidentally preventing a child from disclosing their abuse by failing to ask any questions as soon as the 'trans issue' is identified?

Hopefully there have been more situations where a school counsellor has identified the trans as a symptom rather than a root cause and continued to investigate even against the guidance?

From the mermauds toys article linked above;

To put our hands up at the start, parents of trans kids do sometimes talk about toys and clothes. It helps explain their child’s gender identity.

I wonder why that is? Could it be because of a magic elusive concept that's hard to define?

"My daughter is a jeans-wearing, skateboarding trans girl. For her, being trans is nothing to do with wearing dresses or playing with dolls, it’s who she is deep down inside.”

Ah, that magical deep down inside certainty of gender identity that all children have.

In fairness, parents have been dissecting and observing their children’s toy and clothing choices for countless generations. Parents of trans kids are no different. Still, when parents of trans kids do so, it can be taken as a sign that clothes and toys are a guiding factor in the way they perceive their child’s gender identity.

Soo.. the parents ARE judging their children to be trans based on clothing choices?

For mum, Melanie, it’sotherpeople who seem obsessed with her daughter’s clothes and toys.

"Toys have played no part in my trans daughter’s gender identity whatsoever. She has always played with cars, dinosaurs and lego, occasionally playing with a doll. When dressing up she rarely dresses as a princess preferring to be a wizard or her own creation. Her choice of toys bears no impact upon the gender she identifies as.”

So what does? That's a lot of what doesn't without giving us something concrete as to what does!

“I think parents struggle sometimes to explain how their child came out as trans."

I think they do too Suzie. I think they do too.

One thing that concerns me is trans self identification as a result of CSA.

So much this.

This is probably one of those areas which suffers as a result of very few people having the requisite insider knowledge. We CSA survivors don't tend to shout about it much, as a rule, and when we do it's very hard to speak honestly and openly.

It's bloody frustrating, the no debate angle, because it robs me of the possibility of talking to women and girls who share my experiences (because mine are 'transphobic' apparently) and robs them of the chance to learn that there are other ways of coping - nurturing a dissociative disorder is really not the healthiest way of dealing with the long-term psychological impact of sexualised abuse on the developing mind!

So this leads on and begs the question: what is the definition of a “trans kid”? When someone says they have one what do they mean?

Do they mean they have child who meets DSM5 criteria for gender dysphoria? Or ICD10 criteria for gender identity disorder of childhood?

Do they mean that their child meets the criteria involving stereotypes? If a child doesn’t meet that criteria for an official diagnosis can they still be a “trans kid”? If a child has body dysmorphia/dysphoria but not behaviour involving stereotypes are they a “trans kid”?

How many kids have met 6 out of 8 of those DSM 5 criteria at some point but the parents never once considered them to be a “trans kid” and let them crack on with toys, clothes, friends, wanting to be a boy/girl instead and just lived with it without labelling them a “trans kid”? I have a friend who is doing just that as an example.

No one can adequately define what a “trans kid” is without resorting to some stereotypes, yet this is the basis for which children are being placed on puberty blockers causing lifelong medicalisation, infertility and asexuality.

You can only get a diagnosis if you've internalised the stereotypes.

Perfectly put, summed up what I was trying to say.

One thing that concerns me is trans self identification as a result of CSA.
If becoming the other (or no) gender is victims method for dealing with abuse, then telling people 'no debate' is effectively trapping victims - and crucially, preventing perpetrators from being named.
I wonder if perpetrators know this and endorse the rhetoric of silencing, as it protects them.

PinkyU

I’m on the thread, you don’t need to keep @ ing me.

The criteria I’ve listed are the DSM 5 criteria which are the basis of most diagnosis worldwide. The ICD 10 diagnosis is this:

F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood: A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behavior in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.0.

Again, there is prominence given to stereotypes. It is less in the ICD10.

But the phrase “profound disturbance” is key here. But I know from personal experience and those reported here that children have been diagnosed without feeling profound disturbances. The criteria are misused and not fit for purpose, whichever criteria you use.

Rogdmum is correct. Those who are left are those with significant body dysphoria and those are the ones that need significant help, not the toddlers who pull hair clips out or girls who like football.

Associated significant distress is needed for the diagnosis.

Kids can be pretty significantly distressed by being repeatedly told their preferences and behaviours are wrong for their sex.

If you strip out all the kids whose distress is rooted in others' inability to accept them as eg boys who like dolls and dresses, we're left with kids whose distress is centred on the sexed body itself (a sign of having suffered sexual trauma of some sort). These children cannot meet the diagnostic criteria unless stereotypes are brought in.

You can only get a diagnosis if you've internalised the stereotypes.

Those poor American kids.

@NotBadConsidering the NHS criteria seems to have far more focus on the intensity and effect of thoughts and behaviour than the American site you’ve used.

If you remove the stereotypes you are left with hatred of one’s own body. This is very real for some young people (not implying that anyone here thinks otherwise!) and can manifest in ways like a crippling inability to take a shower, go out in public etc. Exposure to social media or schools or whatever, pushing the idea of a “trans child” further reinforces the idea that this feeling is just an identity rather than the complex psychological condition that it actually is and so it becomes more and more important in the young person’s mind.

I would personally argue that in many cases, hatred of one’s body is a manifestation of hatred of oneself and where identified - which means decent psychological support- that is what needs to be addressed through therapy, not a sending down a medical path of PBs, hormones etc. I think we would see cases plummet it there were a societal shift away from the “trans child” and a broad acceptance that a therapeutical path is suitable for these young people.

Katie Alcock, Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Lancaster University, did a fascinating lecture on this at the February Women's Place conference.

Children's ideas of sex can be very much mixed up with gender, this mainly resolves itself by 10.

www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

From what I've read, a child who identified as the opposite sex, both pre and post puberty, and maintained that whilst getting appropriate support could have genuine life long gender dysphoria. I think Zucker found 2 out of 10 children at his clinic in Canada, did persist, and he supported them to transition.

Someone can only make that decision as an adult.

If parents and clinicians ignore intensive and rigid behaviour involving stereotypes that is for more than 6 months in duration, because their own prejudicial thoughts are impacting their view of a child, how else could a child be said to have gender dysphoria?

Pinky you refer to the rigidity of the beliefs being the key factor but that hasn't been the narrative around the debate at all. The affirmation route goes along with the idea the child is trans from the moment a boy wants to dress up as a princess.

I accept that some children may show strong signs of GD but there is no way for a young child to truly understand what being trans is.

[quote PinkyU]**@NotBadConsidering* whilst the behaviours and thoughts listed are a parent of what is considered during assessment, the most important element (as is the case with practically all* mental health and neurodevelopmental conditions) is the intensity, rigidity and effect of the thoughts/behaviour.

Again, if you take OCD, every human on the planet has schemas (patterns of behaviour) that could be described as part of the assessment process for OCD, however it is the intensity, rigidity and effect (intrusive thoughts etc) that make the behaviour ACTUALLY part of the criteria for an OCD diagnosis. The same applies to a diagnosis of GD.[/quote]
Cross post, but again, why does the intensity and rigidity matter when it comes to clothes, toys and friendships? Why does a boy who rigidly and intensively wants to play with dolls for more than 6 months matter? Because a child has to do that to meet criteria.

It only matters if a parent or a clinician thinks that a boy who rigidly or intensely plays with dolls for more than 6 months is a problem.