Do “trans kids” exist?

Are you talking about biological differences or personality? It's not clear. You said biological differences.

She's suggesting that there is some biological basis to overall personality differences between the sexes. Which as I understand it is considered the most moderate/common sort of view in the relevant sciences, Gina Rippon notwithstanding.

For all that people here like to say they want to follow the biology, I can't help but feel the preference for Rippon is mainly because she seems to support the right ideology rather than because her position is clearly stronger.

(those are for sharing)

I need to work on that.

I'm v. drunk.

Yep. You've convinced me!

I have suspected for years that when someone says - my cat is vegan - the cat wasn't the one that made that choice.

Thank you.

I Knew it!

I don't subscribe to "gender identities". I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

I 100% agree, we get to the same conclusion albeit from different angles.

To be honest, I have not read any of those authors.

I do believe that there are some studies on personality traits where women on average score higher on agreeableness and conscientiousness. I also believe that agreeableness is negatively correlated to salary progression (but I may have that wrong). I am sure sure if any of the studies have managed to adjust for female socialisation- or indeed how that even would be possible.

I don’t really subscribe to “gender identities”. I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

The (average) differences in many traits that have been repeatedly observed between the sexes. It doesn't mean every male is more 'masculine' than every female but that outliers have a hard time fitting in. Yes I have read Gina Rippon but prefer Debra Soh, Steven Pinker and Simon Baron Cohen. Sorry if that makes me less of a feminist but that is what I believe to be true.

Which biological differences do you mean, Thingybob? Because most of us here in FWR are very keen on acknowledging biological difference.

Shedbuilder, I knew I was going to upset some on here but I don't think denying biological differences is doing men, women or those thinking they are trans any favours.

(Oops not just for girls - I’m sure it has been in the last).

Girls hackathon... just popped up in my inbox:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/teens-in-ai-aldhack2020-global-hackathon-online-tickets-117773986163

@Spuddddd , just as a comment. Our son was very feminine when he was little, also surrounded by women (me, two sisters and grandmother) as my husband works long hours. He sometimes dressed up in princess dresses and said that made him a girl. He also played a lot with girls at nursery.

He is now 10 and in a boys only school. He plays football, but is also interested in drawing, music and computers. He has some friends that are stereotypical boys (mainly football boys), but some of his friends are the most sensitive and sweet boys you can imagine. I know that single sex schools not are for everyone, but we have found that it removes stereotypes.

My oldest daughter is very into maths and coding and nobody at her girls school is telling her that “girls don’t do that”. She once went to a coding camp (aged about 9), turned out to be the only girl and had a group of boys from a coed school telling her that “girls can’t code”. She just told them they were idiots and showed them that she was better at coding than they were.

I sometimes despair of the gender roles that are forced on so many children these days. I think many may feel pushed into behaving in a way that is completely alien to them and makes them uncomfortable. Then some ruthless organisation like Mermaids turns up and tells them that the magic solution is to “change gender”.

Do trans kids exist? Are there such things as trans kids?

Of course it depends what 'trans kid' means.

1. A trans kid is a kid with a boy's body who is actually a girl, or a kid with a girl's body who is actually a boy? No, these are contradictory. A kid with a boy's body is a boy; a kid with a girl's body is a girl. Being a boy means you are not a girl. Being a girl means you are not a boy. No such things as trans kids if this is what a trans kid is.

1. A trans kid is a boy who would like to be girl, or a girl who would like to be a boy? This is a little more difficult to sort out. What is it to want something impossible? Is it possible to want something impossible? ("I would like this circle to be square"? "I would like black to be white"? "I would like to live forever."?) Some think it is, some think not. But, arguably, if this is what a trans kid is, then yes, there are such things as trans kids.

1. A trans kid is a boy who believes he is a girl or a girl who believes she is a boy? Like (2) this is a bit tricky. What is it to believe something not just false but impossible? ("I believe this circle is square."? "I believe black is white."? "I believe I will live forever."?) Some think this makes sense, some think not. But, again arguably, if this is what a trans kid is, then yes, there are such things as trans kids.

Anything else suggested? Is there a (4)? Let us assume not. (Or is there? ... Remember you are not to talk of stereotypes.)

-- What to do if your kid is a trans kid? If your kid is a trans kid, this can only be true, at best, in the sense of (2) or (3). What to do? ... Explain (1) to your kid. If she/he is too young to understand, distract him/her in the usual way. Explain again later if necessary.

I was reading about the Spartans...
‘Taken from home at the age of 7... they learned wrestling, gymnastics, were taught to fight’ this was the girls...

Strange how times and attitudes change?Of course the boys had an even shittier time...

I'm sure many on here will disagree with me but I'm very much of the opinion that some boys are born with a feminine personality, and vice versa. Debra Soh outlines the science in her book The End of Gender. I've personally known four men from infancy that were always feminine, three have grown up to be happy, successful, gay men (the forth is a recluse who I don't believe has ever had a relationship) It was evident in these children from as young as a year old that they didn't behave like other boys, they always chose girls as friends and liked stereotypical 'girl toys' and activities, even more so than most girls did. This continued throughout their childhood and back then they were generally just accepted without all this trans nonsense.

Whoah there. You're posting on the feminism board. Enough with the sexual stereotyping! You say three out of four quiet, gentle boys who liked playing with girls' toys turned out to be gay and the fourth boy's a recluse, thus effectively saying that 'normal' boys aren't quiet and gentle. Presumably you think that noisy, rumbustious girls who like playing with cars and robots will also grow up to become lesbians and recluses too? You're exemplifying precisely the gender stereotyping we're complaining about.

As others have said Takemeaway, the experience of your son doesn't sound any different to the experience of gender non conforming children throughout history with the exception that kids are now being bombarded by trans ideology.

I'm sure many on here will disagree with me but I'm very much of the opinion that some boys are born with a feminine personality, and vice versa. Debra Soh outlines the science in her book The End of Gender. I've personally known four men from infancy that were always feminine, three have grown up to be happy, successful, gay men (the forth is a recluse who I don't believe has ever had a relationship) It was evident in these children from as young as a year old that they didn't behave like other boys, they always chose girls as friends and liked stereotypical 'girl toys' and activities, even more so than most girls did. This continued throughout their childhood and back then they were generally just accepted without all this trans nonsense.

Your sons identification as trans, the change of name and importance of school uniform comes straight from the trans rulebook. I would be 100% clear that it is impossible to change sex but yes I'd let him change his name or start to call him some mutually agreed nickname that may be softer or more feminine than his birth name (I was always called Charlie rather than my girly real name) As for school uniform, I'm not sure anyone really enjoys wearing it so I'd probably expect him to accept that but encourage him to experiment to create his own flamboyant style outside of school.

I have a friend whose some has absolutely insisted that he wants to wear feminine clothes, have his hair long and be called she not he.

I've had a fair few conversations with her and she has several other children as well as two grown up ones and she's not the sort you mess with. She's very no nonsense but recognises that this self expression makes him happy and supports him without making a big fuss about it or twisting biology to suit the current trans ideology iyswim. He's also diagnosed with asd and adhd and it's possible that the textures of the clothes feel nicer than traditional 'boy' clothes.

She told me that there was no way she was going anywhere near Mermaids, and that she'll just see how it all pans out. He told her at 4 and he's 9 now, so I guess he's a trans child.

Oh, and CopsCantCatchCriminals
Vegan cats exist. Don't they?

I don't think they would be very healthy if they were truly vegan, because cats are obligate carnivores.

George in the FF every time, but did anyone here identify with Susan in Swallows and Amazons? Any child, I mean? One of the things I loved about S&A was that there were three ok girls in those books, and only one I found a pain.

As far as name changing, would you let him change it if he wanted to have a different boys name, Rodger, say? If not, I think you can just say that kids can change their names legally when they are adults.

The skirt thing I might not forbid mainly because it might give him something to push back against. But i also don't believe that barring issues around particular physical needs, any child has a pressing need to wear one type of clothing over another. Clothes don't make us who we are, and learning that comes in part from experiencing it.

I'd be looking very carefully about what the school is teaching the kids. And I would be direct about the fact that it is not possible to become a girl nor does a girl feel a specific way inside. Though I'd also try and avoid talking about it too much.