Do “trans kids” exist?

TyroBurningDownTheCloset

FireUnderTheHand it sounds like you've done a better job of sorting yourself out than I've managed so far. Will have to have another look at your comment about compartmentalisation when I've got a bit more caffeine down me because at the moment I can see it's English but I can't make the words make sense.

I'm sorry I was trying to be clear but it is 3:30am here - can't get my brain to shut down (as usual, ADHD yay!). I'd love to discuss when/if you can work out my word soup and if not I can re-word so it comes out as English rather than insomniac brain language.

I didn't go the asexual route, I just had no sense of my own agency whatsoever. This receptacle was taught to perform - the sex-pozzy crap really didn't help with that - and it took until my thirties to start seriously considering whether I'm attracted to men at all (answer: no).

For reference, I was also burned very badly at 12(ish)yrs old on my pelvis so my external genitalia is disfigured somewhat which was a huge barrier to any sexual exploration until mid-teens. I began experimenting with other girls my age under cover in the dark and tried experimenting with boys. Didn't allow myself to relax enough to enjoy any sexual experiences but had a lot of them. I described myself as asexual as I did it to please the people I was with not because I liked anything about - everything about it made my skin crawl. Never touched myself except for function (menses), couldn't look at it at all until mid-20s. Granted, my CSA was compounded with disfigurement but CSA alone does a number on us doesn't it? Before the burn I wasn't any better off.

/Sorry for the merail

I wonder if some teachers, youth workers etc volunteer to be the lead in ‘supporting’ these children?

As I’ve always said about politicians - those who really really really want the job as the ones that really shouldn’t get it.

The idea that an over zealous teacher or youth worker should decide that my sensitive, kind and caring son who prefers reading to booting a football around is actually trans scares me so much that I almost want to push him away from his true self and push him towards as many "little boy" stereotypes as possible to keep him safe.

Constantly asking:
"What does feeling like a girl feel like, what does that mean?"
"You have a boy's body, right?"
"Since you have a boy's body can you tell me what it feels like to be a boy?"
"If you can't tell me how it feels to be a boy and you have a boy's body how can you possibly say you feel like a girl?"
"Would you like me (a woman and your mom) to tell you what it feels like to be a girl and then a woman?"
If he answers no I would explain that you are qualified as per your body to comment on feeling like a girl/woman (female) whereas he is not as he is a boy (male).

With all due respect, he has been influenced... perhaps you tell him Santa isn't real? Santa is a legendary character imagined up by society like how gender is imagined up by society. They are both different depending on the culture for example in France Santa is Père Noël (children leave their shoes by the fireplace filled with carrots and treats for Père Noël's donkey, Gui, Père Noël takes the offerings and, if the child has been good, leaves small presents in their shoes) in the US we have Santa Claus (comes down the chimney (if you have one) eats cookies/milk and fills hanging stockings with small gifts and leaves large gifts under a Xmas tree) and also Papa Noël (comes by boat and accompanied by alligators) and so on and so forth.

Yes crushing Santa for him will be awful but it may go a long way in explaining reality versus beliefs. Santa doesn't exist except in theory and the same goes for gender - and gender is hurting him because he doesn't think he is the 'right' kind of boy. His belief is that he 'feels like a girl' but reality shows him that he can only 'feel like a boy' because that is what he is. It is impossible to know what it feels like to be anything other than what you are, reality is paramount. His heart doesn't know the pain of being treated like a girl - his heart knows the pain of being treated like an outcast boy.

My sister was to opposite way (obviously). This was the 70s... she came out in the 80s (when it meant something to come out - not today when primary school kids are announcing that they are ‘whatever’).

Still a woman. Would have ticked all the boxes today for a overzealous teacher today...

My DDs best friend was what mermaids would describe as ‘gender non confirming’ from an early age. He loved dolls, dresses and pink etc. When he was around 5/6 he started to get a lot of comments from other kids. Suddenly he hated being a boy and wanted to be a girl and would get quite distressed about it. Then he got into dance. Dance was a world where he could wear fancy clothes with glitter and sequins and where being a boy was an advantage, he got all the main parts as there were very few boys. His parents also made sure he was aware of other role models such as drag queens (controversial I know) who didn’t conform in the way other primary school students expect little boys to. He is a thriving now and never says he wants to be a girl anymore because he is realised there is more to being a boy than cars and superhero’s.
Me and his mother still shudder about how easily he would have taken up the trans ideology and ended up going down a route where he was never happy in his body and with himself.

What do I want to do with the other 20%, who come out the other side of puberty still persistent in their distress?

I dunno, commiserate? Join them in agitating for decent therapy and evidence based treatments for their psychological distress? Gently remind them where necessary that their birth sex might unfortunately preclude them from being included in certain things, and then continue treating them as human beings?

FireUnderTheHand it sounds like you've done a better job of sorting yourself out than I've managed so far. Will have to have another look at your comment about compartmentalisation when I've got a bit more caffeine down me because at the moment I can see it's English but I can't make the words make sense.

I didn't go the asexual route, I just had no sense of my own agency whatsoever. This receptacle was taught to perform - the sex-pozzy crap really didn't help with that - and it took until my thirties to start seriously considering whether I'm attracted to men at all (answer: no).

Jesus Christ. If we accept that children are by law too immature to make the decision to buy a fucking Party Popper or Christmas Cracker until they are 18 years old then surely we need to accept that children are too immature to be offered damaging drugs and surgery to change their bodies based on a hormone surge in puberty?

Would love to dig in with you but I suspect that the dissociation discussion may be too much.

However, I will say that...

The resulting compartmentalization skillset gained through severe trauma built an almost superhuman chaos mitigation and management function into my psyche. It happens automatically in crisis situations but after years of dissecting it I can employ it at will when I need to get through a situation that would otherwise be unbearable (physically or psychologically). Did you have a similar outcome in regards to compartmentalization?

Through great effort I taught myself to love my body and myself.

Surviving traumas that literally destroy your entire worldview (including perception of self) can't be healed by ignoring the issue and mutilating the body.

I basically adopt Ray Blachard's views on this one.

Biological sex exists. Some people are gender nonconforming, to a greater or lesser extent. Most gender nonconforming people are able to live comfortably as their own biological sex and that should be our basic approach when we see kids who are gender conforming.

However, there is a small % of people who, due to be very gender non conforming, may feel not unreasonably that their life will be better and happier if they "live as" a member of the opposite sex. No, they have not actually changed sex. But it is compassionate to treat them as such.

Traditionally, this group consisted largely of biologically male gay men who are very feminine presenting in their looks or mannerisms or both. Gay men like this find dating very hard, because other gay men are generally not very attracted to them. In their teens, these boys sometimes experiment with wearing women's clothes and discover that they find things easier and (perhaps for the first time) actually get to enjoy flattering male attention from straight guys who find them attractive. Some of these boys have traditionally made the decision at some point in their teens to live as a woman; I wish them luck and am glad that there are medical services that are there to help them out. (And I don't find these people a threat to me, unlike the autogynephiles; they are not attracted to women and usually go out of their way to draw no attention to themselves because they "pass" and want to go on passing)

However, this is likely to be a very small number of people.

And the late teens are the earliest time to start making decisions about this. Gender non conforming children should simply be encouraged to present however they want, and then people around them should wait and see. The great majority just end up being perfectly happy and healthy gay people.

there's an 80% chance he'll come out the other side of puberty understanding that he's a boy.

Yes. What do you want to do with the other 20%?

I don’t really subscribe to “gender identities”. I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

That’s fine until you meet someone who is more comfortable with a body more the opposite sex to what they were born with. Then you realise it’s not just about preferences and personalities.

I get a little antsy though about the presentation of Rippon as if she is the last/only/dominant viewpoint scientifically on this subject, or for that matter that there is only one reasonable feminist viewpoint. It's not factual.

"it can be taken as a sign"

Not read the whole thread but these words just stand out. Taken as a sign. It's mythology.

Goose, I actually think it is extremely hard to have a nuanced nurture/nature discussion on FWR precisely because of the monitoring, screenshotting and trollery, tbh.

Some of us may well be interested to delve into the difference between the blank slate hypothesis and other perspectives, and I'm not quite sure where I sit among the options, but there's no way on God's green earth that I think FWR is going to be a useful place to hash it out without a whole host of PBPs and other trolls derailing the whole thing with pathetic gotcha attempts.