Woman’s Hour Tuesday

Jenny Murray's last day. As part of her sign off before the end of the programme she said there are many different types of woman, but our sex, we share. That was pretty clear.

Peto was using it for validation, "I have been sexually assaulted, see how womanly I am!"

Any sexual assault is, of course, awful. However, male people do seem to think it's unusual - I have regular conversations with my gay male pal who was assaulted. He has absolutely no insight into how very common it is, and it has never occurred to him to wonder whether the reason I have such insight into his trauma might be because I have experienced the same thing, as have many of his other female friends. Totally oblivious. It's fascinating, really.

Jane Garvey seemed anxious to get it over not at all surprised, Shed.

Bet the brief was along the lines of "keep it tight, don't let them say trans women aren't women"

Thanks, Nic for saying that trans women are trans women, it's so important.

Yes, the entire argument was based around how often Peto has been sexual harassed and sexually assaulted. And the that means women were going to get more assaults too, as a result...?

Eh?

Thanks a million PomBear. I was listening in the kitchen while cooking and just kept hearing little bursts of it that set me off shouting at the radio. I found Nic quite difficult to hear clearly but her words about needing to be compassionate came through loud and clear. I missed quite a lot of what she said so it's good to see it written down.

It's actually a better interview on paper than it seemed at the time. It seemed rushed, Peto was a poor speaker and Jane Garvey seemed anxious to get it over. If it had been another 10 minutes longer Peto could have been better exposed and Nic would have the chance to explain a bit more. I'm not quite so angry with Woman's Hour as I was but they really haven't acquitted themselves well.

I know these shows always want "2 sides" represented but it is a shame that this seems to mean GC trans people (there are plenty of them) are never invited to discuss trans issues on popular platforms.

We only ever hear from TWAW crew.

Are people with GRCs taken more seriously if they're sexually assaulted? Is that what Peto meant? Very odd.

Thank you so much pombear. I can't bear listening to radio when the sound is poor so I really appreciate that

Thank you pombear. Those phone lines! Must've made that difficult.

I listened to the interview this evening and I couldn’t believe that HPeto seems to be laying the blame for their sexual assault(s) - which I assume was inflicted by males - on women. WTAF?!? Why don’t they raise this issue with men - who are disproportionately responsible for sexual assault - instead of weaponising it as a very creepy veiled threat against women.

Thank you pombear, I really wanted to see if it was as bizarre as it sounded (half-listening whilst working).

pombear thank you so so much for doing that. Really makes a difference to see it written down.

I too had a good laugh at the idea that TRAs and the women-expelling Labour Party, have gone high. And then finishing with an allegation that women’s groups are alt-right. So very high.

What's with Peto's weird fixation with sexual assault?

How is it even part of this argument? Just weird.

The amazing Sarah Stuart went to a meeting Peto hosted, where they mentioned a unqualified rape statistic (picture attached).

All very odd

Amazing work @pombear

Where to start.....

This quote:
"What I, I’d say to everyone is that when someone else goes low, this is a Michelle Obama quote, erm, when someone else is abusive, don’t respond. Go high, put the arguments, take the moral high ground. Er, and that’s certainly in LGBT Labour, and the Labour Party, what we’ve been trying to do"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

So is Peto telling me TRAs have been GOING HIGH all this time? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Just when I thought they couldn't get lower really?

Part 5

JG: And you, you feel that very passionately but Heather equally, and I, I don’t need to put words into her mouth, Heather is living her life and having her experience and I’m sure has been made to feel, well you tell us Heather, you’ve been made to feel vulnerable too?

HP: Oh yes, and, I mean, and as I say and I, I gave the example earlier, it’s actually now, unfortunately it acceptable to abuse transgender women in society, I mean, you know I’ve had, had sexual assaults happen to me and er, the police haven’t taken them seriously and other people don’t take them seriously and the, the trouble is as soon as you start to allow, erm, a group of women, in this case, transgender women, to have less rights and er, not to have you know, not to be treated with respect, actually that creates a culture where that spreads to other women as well. And that, you know, unfortunately is, is going to happen. In terms of this particular debate the, erm, if you dropped GRA reform based on, you know, alt-right campaigns or other misinformation campaigns then, when you come to other equalities, other minorities and women’s equalities, when the law needs to be changed or updated you’ll have those same campaigns and they’ll sense that they actually can, er, succeed…

JG: Right

HP: …with misinformation…

JG: Heather

HP: ..and abuse campaigns…

JG: Heather, thank you, that’s Dr Heather Peto, co-chair of Labour’s LGBTQ, sorry, LGBT plus group, get there in the end, erm, and Dr Nicola Williams from the gloop, group Fair Play for Women. Erm, as ever, we welcome your thoughts on this at BBC Woman’s Hour is where you’ll find us on Twitter, you can email the programme via the website. There’s never enough time for that conversation I understand that and we will of course return to it. But that was the most recent development. I suspect there’ll be much more to come.

Part 4

JG: Misinformation Nicola?

NW: Well, no. Erm, and the laws on paper for women are meaningless unless they can be implemented. And I’ve explained how hiding someone’s birth sex makes it impossible er, to implement the laws that we’ve, we’ve got for women. I just want to say, look , I’ve got enormous compassion for trans people, you know. But we also need to have compassion for women too. You know, that’s what’s missing in this debate. I want trans people to be treated fairly, and live safely, but I want that for women too because everyone needs to be thought of in good policy making and, you know, women still need sex-based rights. We still need male-free spaces, nothing’s changed for us, the reasons we need them have not gone away, but what has changed iswhat trans groups are now demanding from us. Years ago, transwomen were just asking to be treated as if they were women, you know, and that was a kindness, a courtesy, to do that out of compassion for someone with gender dysphoria. But now, trans pressure groups say that’s not enough. We should be forced by law to say transwomen are literally female…

JG: Alright

NW: …whether you believe it or not, and that’s a problem for women.

JG: Let me put that point to Heather. Heather, it does seem to, to many feminists er and, to people who support Nicola, that it’s always women, always women who have to make way and make space for others.

HP: Er, no, er, no I don’t accept that at all. And what I would say is, er, that transgender women suffer many of the sexual harassments and sexual violence that other women, erm, suffer. And so, really, transgender rights do not conflict with women’s rights. Transgender women are women and suffer those, er sexual, you know, sexual harassment and er domestic violence and..

JG: And, and that’s your , forgive me for interrupting but that is, that is quite literally the point at which I don’t think you’re going to reach any sort of agreement Nicola, because you just don’t believe that, do you?

NW: Well no, because, you know, with the greatest of respect transwomen are not women. That word woman has already been taken, and it means something quite specific . Transwomen are transwomen. They were born male, not female, and it’s a sad truth for them, but it is a truth nonetheless, and the thing is, biological sex is real and it matters to women because every single female has been sha, has had her life shaped, erm, for, by being female basically. Erm, males can’t be female, a penis can’t be a female sex organ

JG: No…a..

NW: … and it shouldn’t be controversial or shameful to say that…

Part 3

JG: How, how, do you believe, Nicola, that might have impacted on the lives of some women and girls?

NW: OK, well, that’s because women have sex based rights because we’re female and one of those sex-based rights is the right to have spaces just for us, when, so that’s female-only, male free spaces and opportunities. And so there is already an existing law, for women, that allows all male people to be excluded based on their birth sex. Now that law simply can’t function if another law allows males to hide their birth sex. And so, you know, the government made a judgement that the GRA as it stands already strikes a fair balance. And so instead of self-ID, they will invest in trans healthcare. So when a few trans people with severe gender dysphoria will still be able to change their birth certificate, but it’s not all trans people just on their say so because it’s a step too far. And I, I think no fair-minded government could have kept on ignoring that conflict. They looked to find the fairest solutions, taking everyone into account. Er, and that was the right thing to do.

JG: That’s your view. Erm, Heather, what do you say to Nicola?

HP: Well, I mean, I think this is the ridiculous and this, erm and it’s misinformation about what er Gender Recognition Act reform would actually do. There is, within the Equality Act, already the ability to exclude transgender people from single-sex services and occupations if it is a just and proportionate measure, OK, and that’s not changed by having a Gender Recognition Certificate. That is completely separate. And what most organisations, and we’re talking about domestic violence, erm, organisations, like refuges er and rape centre, crisis centres, erm, they are accepting of transgender people. They already have transgender people use those services. Erm, nothing will change in terms of those particular rights that, erm, Nicola is talking about just because we change Gender Recognition Act reform. But one of the things I would say to Nicola is it’s a real mistake to exclude, for example, transgender women in saying sex-based rights. So when I was sexually harassed at work, and it was very nasty erm harassment, most women and a large number of men supported me. But there was a vocal number of women er, and a lot of misogynist men, who were against it, against me having those anti-harassment rights. What happened is the workplace culture had changed so that it was acceptable erm to be, to make sexualised comments about women. So by not actually supporting transgender rights, actually women undermine other, you know, other women’s rights as well, so I’d say, you know this is just misinformation and just incorrect.

Part 2

JG: Right. So as it stands you’re left feeling that you’re still not accepted?

HP: Erm, yes and I think the trouble has been over three years of this toxic er discussion. There’s lots of misinformation, hate targeted towards transgender people . I think that has almost set us backwards with our rights because although nothing is changing in terms of the law, what society sees as acceptable abuse of transgender people, only a few people within society but nevertheless it’s not challenged, erm, it, it’s got a lot worse. So I think, I mean we’re [?]at this point.

JG: Yeah, what we have to acknowledge Heather is that some of that toxicity has been directed at people campaigning for the rights of women. And some of it has been deeply unpleasant.

HP: Yes, well I mean, and a lot of it has been deeply unpleasant targeted to transgender people. What I, I’d say to everyone is that when someone else goes low, this is a Michelle Obama quote, erm, when someone else is abusive, don’t respond. Go high, put the arguments, take the moral high ground. Er, and that’s certainly in LGBT Labour, and the Labour Party, what we’ve been trying to do. Unfortunately it’s not so popular it seems. So one of the things, one of the difficulties is on social media, toxicity is more popular, reasonable arguments and facts, you know, we’re living at a time where social media does direct discussions.

JG: Yes, well you can cer, yeah, the problem with social media is that sometimes, and I’m, I’m including myself here, we think it’s everything. And we think everybody’s on it and everybody cares about what’s said on it. It simply isn’t true, of course.

Erm, Nicola, Heather is left feeling that she still isn’t accepted for who she is. What do you say to her?

NW: Well, I think we need to be really clear about the terms we use in this debate because the phrase self-ID is bandied around quite a bit but it means different things in different contexts really. So I mean trans people can already self-identify as transgender. That doesn’t change. And trans people have laws to protect them from discrimination and hate crimes, and, erm, trans people in the UK have good trans rights, I’d say some of the best in the world. And, and so they should. You know, I’m glad that they do. But self-ID in a context of GRA reform wasn’t about giving trans people more trans rights. It was actually about giving them more sex-based rights. Women’s sex-based rights. Because it wasn’t just about the ability to self-identify their gender identity, but it was about self-identifying their birth sex too, so…

JG: Right..and it’s…

NW: And that would have meant that any transwoman, for any, or any man for that matter, would have been able to get a new birth certificate, saying that he’d literally been born female, and that it would have been a criminal offence for their birth…

JG: OK

NW: …sex to be revealed, and that’s a conflict.

Part 1:

JG: Jane Garvey

HP: Dr Heather Peto

NW: Dr Nicola Williams

JG: Let’s start with the gender recognition act which isn’t changing. Trans men and women will not be allowed to self-identify. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has said it was a missed opportunity . Women’s rights groups have applauded that decision as wat they describe as a victory for fairness and common sense.
Let’s talk to two people who’ve been campaigning on this issue, Dr Heather Peto is co-chair of the Labour Party’s LGBT+ group, Heather good morning to you

HP: Good morning

JG: And Dr Nicola Williams is from the group Fair Play for Women, erm, good morning to you too Nicola.

NW: Good morning.

JG: Can we just, Heather, if you don’t mind, start with you. Erm, er, (HP: Yes) can you just tell us a little bit about what difference it would have made to your life if the GRA had indeed changed and you were allowed to self-identify.

HP: So, self, self-identification of your gender is really important because, erm, not only for the individual which allows your birth certificate and therefore your legal status, er, to be changed. You can already change your passport, and your driving licence but for er legal reasons it’s important to have your birth certificate changed. But the real issue behind self-identification is acceptance of transgender people. It used to be the case that, er, you know, you’d go round your daily life a, and people would, you know, strangers on the streets or other people in the workplace would demand that you proved to them that you are the gender er, that you state you are. So, you know, prove to me that you’re a woman. And I’m just trying to go around my ordinary life erm, so really the er, the Gender Recognition Act allowing people just to self-declare their gender is all about acceptance by society. After all you wouldn’t have, you know, you’d, we would find it strange if we said ‘well you’ve got to prove to someone that you’re er lesbian, gay or bisexual’. Erm, so that’s really what, what the Gender Recognition Act reform was all about.

Fab, pombear, thank you!!!

Did someone mention a transcript would be useful? (It's been a while, but I had a bit of spare time this evening for once!)

Coming up - in five parts for post readability!

I am sure the BBC does check, the blog says it has evidence to back it up that Peto will give to journalists.

I long to hear Julia Long on these kind of debates.

Yes basically what WPUK have said, it is important to have a calm discussion hearing the side you disagree with.

I like to think this guest was a deliberate choice. Chosen for the quality of their argument and ability to put themselves in the other person's shoes.

mobile.twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1310871023928127488