I ❤️ J K Rowling Spreading across USA

Well, yes, the fireworks would be interesting - but opening a political movement which finally seems to be getting somewhere in resisting the TRA juggernaut up to the usual Monty Pythonesque accusations of "splitters, etc.", not so good.

This runs the risk of having her initial brave stand stolen by people who then want to use it to express intolerance.

When and if, this starts to show itself, I will want a front row seat for the fireworks. She is not a Lightweight

JK Rowling's statement was very carefully expressed to show that she is tolerant of people with different views, and tolerant of those who are suffering from gender dysphoria, but that she feels a need to speak up for women's rights and women's spaces.

This runs the risk of having her initial brave stand stolen by people who then want to use it to express intolerance.

she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions.

Indeed. There are only a few places where women need same sex provision. Usually when they are vulnerable (getting undressed, homeless shelter, having a smear, in hospital), or recovering from male violence (rape refuge, women's aid shelter) or in power competitions like sport. Or where they can't escape, like prison.

Male rapists, like Karen White in the pic, have been housed in female prisons (and assaulted the inmates), rape refuges have lost government funding for remaining female only, men are masturbating in bed next to women in women's aid shelters, there are numerous men competing as women in power sport and a women was called a transphobic bigot for objecting to a male wanting to do her smear.

There are countless threads on here with stats and evidence to support women's rights to privacy, dignity and safety.

We're not new to this. It's not about trans people. It's about the erosion of women's rights.

More analysis on suicide stats:

www.womenarehuman.com/seeking-the-truth-about-teen-suicides-and-puberty-blockers/

Also, medical transition doesn't improve mh outcomes:

www.womenarehuman.com/sex-reassignment-treatment-does-not-improve-mental-health-journal-issues-correction/

That's a round up of a lot of research on Suicide and some analysis as much of it is flawed or subject to different biases.

Transition doesn't appear to be the holy grail for all though and particularly can make depression and suicidal ideation worse for young natal born women.

But every is an individual so it's extremely hard to give blanket statements.

Essentially though, gatekeeping is incredibly important.

And transition or die is weaponised.

On Suicide:

www.genderhq.org/trans-youth-suicide-statistics-kill-themselves-manipulate-parents?fbclid=IwAR3OgKxh0YxYKqqH5uYcZvuP3Cc8tzWuX9mZw7sjq6DsJJiAiQ4hRktrm2A

I get very frustrated with the claim constantly thrown about that people with a trans identity have a very high rate of suicide and self-harm. Apart from the fact that it's irresponsible to keep mentioning this, and against all the careful guidance from the Samaritans, it's such an over-simplification of what would seem to be a very complex area.

From what I've read, decades of research (before ROGD became a big factor) show that people who transition are likely to have at least one of the following:

• early history of sexual abuse
• early experience of family trauma, e.g. parents split up, poor relationship with at least one parent/step--parent, bereavement, loss of a sibling, witnessing and/or experiencing domestic violence
• on the autistic spectrum
• ADHD
• anxiety/depression/OCD
• bullied at school
• bullied at home
• same-sex attracted, especially where the family or peer group are homophobic
• coming from a home/community with rigid gender stereotypes, which would make most normal youngsters feel on edge

Any single one of those factors could lead in due course to self-harm. Many people sadly have several of them.

My tentative conclusion from the little I've read about research on long-term outcomes of transition is that it is beneficial for some. However, if you go into this with ongoing mental health problems or a lifelong conditon like ASD, transition isn't going to be a magic bullet, and my fear would be that sometimes desperate people convince themselves that it will be, and then feel terribly let down.

The research also needs to be carefully read to establish how they define transition - just social, or social plus medical treatment, and if the latter, which specific treatments? The side effects of some of the medical treatments are horrendous, and the results of surgery leave a lot to be desired in many cases. More barriers to long-term happiness and contentment.

TL:DR - if there are high rates of self-harm amongst trans people, maybe it's not just because of bigotry in society, maybe this group has a lot of other risk factors too.

I'm still trying to get my head around pp's gall to post links that we should read, for our 'education' I guess, to better understand the irresponsibility of JKR's writings--- which pp had not yet read. And then call us all transphobes.

You’re right that her good points get drowned out by the hysteria around trans issues amid a very divided society, which is deeply troubling and as a young person, I’m growing increasingly frustrated with my peers for casting aside their respect for civil liberties and critical thought because they’re afraid of coming across as bigoted.

You recognise it, so don't do it. Do not be one of those young people who thinks reading something they may disagree with will harm them or label them.

And don't be that young woman who says another woman should not have opinions on Twitter (or anywhere else) because she should just know it would only encourage death threats or rape threats.

If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true? Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions?

The "could" in that sentence is doing a lot of work. What is your proposed mechanism for discussion about the impact of current gender ideology on vulnerable young girls and women in the UK leading to increased rate of male-committed homicide for male Brazilian transsexual prostitutes?

As a counter suggestion - if you think trans people might be prone to mental health issues including suicide ideation, do you think you should risk telling them all the time that lots of trans people commit suicide and that the whole world, including their favourite childhood author, hates them and wishes they were dead?

Doing that sort of thing seems to me to have a far bigger chance of harming vulnerable trans people.

JKR isn't the person "making trans kids feel unsafe". It's the trans activist lobby.

@danascully96
Rights don’t exist in a vacuum so when you give rights to one group you need to assess their impact on others. One of the issues that has caused concern in the U.K. is the changes demanded by some TRA undermined rights and protections for women. For example, single sex spaces are permitted in law and religious belief is a protected characteristic. If a male bodied person could self id into a female changing room what happens to those women, who, for religious reasons, cannot share a changing room with a male body. Is that religious discrimination as women have lost access to service provision that respected their protected religious beliefs?

These findings are preliminary and lack generalizability for several reasons. The included studies rely heavily on self-reported SITBs and individual definition of “attempt” and “ideation” can vary a great deal, particularly when a definition is not provided and only a single question is used.

Participation bias, particularly in mental health research, is also an issue in recruitment and reporting of participants. ... More broadly, people who have experienced SITBs, or are in greater distress generally, may be more likely to participate in studies on this subject. Likewise, research undertaken on clinical populations, or only those with specific presenting issues, may find higher rates of SITBs than population or community-based samples.

Seems somewhat inconclusive.

The second one says:

We observed no increase in suicide death risk over time and even a decrease in suicide death risk in trans women. However, the suicide risk in transgender people is higher than in the general population and seems to occur during every stage of transitioning. It is important to have specific attention for suicide risk in the counseling of this population and in providing suicide prevention programs.

I haven't had time to read the whole paper so I'm not sure if there is a comparison made with suicide risk amongst other vulnerable or minority groups who also have a higher suicide risk than the general population. As you've read it, perhaps you could quote some of the relevant parts or give us a synopsis.

But even if there is a higher suicide risk amongst trans people, what has this got to do with women being allowed to retain their sex-based rights? Are you saying we should give up some of our rights because some men feel suicidal because we have those rights?

If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true?

What could we do about it if they are?

Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions?

I'm not sure how being wary of believing poorly evidence suicide statistics is likely to 'inspire anti-trans hatred'. Perhaps you could expand on this. And anti-trans hatred largely comes from males, who are often also homophobic and misogynistic, so I'm not sure what you think this has to do with women who want to protect their own rights.

she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions.

This is something that many of us on here agree with, but we are accused of transphobia for suggesting it.

The same goes for gender reassignment — strict regulations and therapy should be put in place, but ultimately like any elective surgery, that’s a decision an adult has to make while also accepting the consequences.

Again, you'll find a lot of agreement on here with this view. Medicating children and encouraging them to become lifelong medical patients is a different matter.

danascully96 did you really and truly come here; accuse both JKR and FWR of transphobia, but hadn’t actually read Joanne Rowling’s essay. And now you contend that she should know better than express her opinion on Twitter? And that the vile threats she, and other women receive on Twitter are not surprising because they should have known better?

As for mischaracterising the trans community on the basis of Twitter hate.
Why wouldn’t you?

terfisaslur.com/

Just finished reading the piece JKR wrote — thank you for sharing. Like I said, she makes good points and as a young person, I’m growing increasingly frustrated with my peers for casting aside their respect for civil liberties and critical thought because they’re afraid of coming across as bigoted. To be fair, JKR should know that Twitter isn’t the right platform to convey such a complicated message, especially when we don’t know anything other than hypotheticals and anecdotes. If you don’t think the suicide rate for trans people is accurate, are we willing to risk the possibility the numbers are true? Are we willing to blast off a bunch of snippets of our beliefs that could inspire anti-trans hatred despite our good intentions? We have had many hate crimes against LGBT people, including murder, in the US: www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/us/transgender-women-deaths.amp.html

Also, the “gay/trans panic defense” can be used in court to avoid prosecution if someone kills an LGBT person because they can claim they momentarily lost their sanity when in the presence of an LGBT person: www.law.georgetown.edu/american-criminal-law-review/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2020/05/57-4-Lee-The-Trans-Panic-Defense-Revisited.pdf

As for Twitter, it’s already a fire-breathing dragon, so JKR shouldn’t be surprised by the onslaught of hate. She shouldn’t mischaracterize the trans movement based on the comment section of her Twitter posts. However, she’s right that domestic violence shelters/charities shouldn’t house trans people because women have a rightful fear of people who remind them of their abuser, but there are trans-only shelters for people in the US, so I think it’s an issue with solutions. The same goes for gender reassignment — strict regulations and therapy should be put in place, but ultimately like any elective surgery, that’s a decision an adult has to make while also accepting the consequences.

You’re right that her good points get drowned out by the hysteria around trans issues amid a very divided society, which is deeply troubling. Thankfully science doesn’t bend to the will of Twitter — if the government funds trans studies, senseless ideologies won’t rule our society. Young people don’t vote in high enough numbers to drastically change anything. And in the US, Trump is not favorable toward LGBT people, so this dystopian world JKR is describing is unlikely to spill forth.

The same slippery slope arguments were made against gay people being threats to society, so I’m wary.

This is the trouble with a cause. Instead of the focus being on moving forward, in this case taking back women's rights, suddenly we forget. A cause has to have a lead that becomes recognisable quickly. The JKR symbol is not about JKR, it is about a movement.

Do you really think a woman like JKR who was prepared to take on the baying twitter mob, would not be able to loudly withdraw her consent if she needed to.

If you think she couldn't or wouldn't do that, I'm afraid your view of strong powerful women is a little flawed

This affects families not just women.

Sure if jk wants him to stop she can just ask him and sure she would

I love this a whole lot but I'm also a little nervy about making love for JKR synonymous with a broad set of political ideas, some of which she will agree with and some that she perhaps won't. It takes her agency away to some extent.

OTOH "I ❤️ JK Rowling" does not state that you love all her ideas. You could love her because she created Harry Potter, you could love her because she created the Lumos charity, you could love her because of her other philanthropies, you could lover her because she pays her taxes, and still disagree with her on other issues.

This tag/statement/brand provides exactly the non-partisan, non-doctrinaire attitude that is needed in the debate about the conflict between trans requirements and women's rights. That you can support certain viewpoints without having to accept that they are synonymous with a broad set of political ideas.

Though, yes, once the statement is adopted by specific groups, it could unfortunately come to represent something that its originator did not intend - rather like the rainbow flag, for example.

Thanks Chris for doing this

@danascully96 I don't believe JKR has appointed herself as an authority on trans issues. She has simply made a few tweets and written a personal essay showing her point of view. If you read anything she has written on the subject you will see that she has no hatred for trans people.

Like a lot of people on this thread I'm a bit dubious about JKR's name being used in this way. It forces her to become a figurehead for a cause and also a figurehead for hatred for TRAs and while it doesn't seem to be harming her popularity as a writer I wonder if it makes her concerned for her and her family's safety.

but we do know there is a high suicide rate within this population!

Actually, we don’t know that at all. Although the claim is made often; the evidence is weak, particularly because claimed gender identity is not usually recorded on death certificates. The idea seems more a case of “sticky numbers” politicising suicide rates than reality.
www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Nor had JKR anointed herself an expert on tnis topic. She has, as is her right, her reflections on the importance of single sex spaces for women.

I commend her essay to you; assuming that you’ve not actually read it. The maunderings of affronted teenagers on Twitter in no way reflect the nuanced and thoughtful essay she actually wrote.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/