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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Witches in children's books

81 replies

TotorosFurryBehind · 24/09/2020 21:00

Now I'm a mother I feel really uncomfortable that it is acceptable to have witches in children's books. I feel like it's part of a historical tradition of vilifying and persecuting wise women and I don't understand why it's not seen in the same way as giving children Golliwog dolls to play with.

Is this feeling rational? I never used to feel this way before I had a daughter.

OP posts:
hoodathunkit · 25/09/2020 13:54

An excellent film on the subject which was way ahead ot its time

another here, a cautionary tale for those who claim that we must always "believe the children"

hoodathunkit · 25/09/2020 13:48

Witches have always had a bad reputation, that is the nature of witchcraft accusations isn't it?

Witchcraft accusations have always been about getting revenge, land grabs, getting rid of burdensome elderly relatives or step children. Sometimes witchraft accusations are about consolidating political power and / or scapegoating minorites.

Witchcraft accusations happen every day and unwanted children, frail elderly people and people who others are envious of get murdered every day by pitchfork wielding mobs.

Some people claim to be witches and Druids but these are made up modern religions not based on real traditions. Pretty much nothing is known apart from a few Roman sources about real Druids and modern Druidry is a neo-pagan invention.

There defeinitely were women and men who had reputations as healers, herbalists and the like, some of them were persecuted as witches, but they would not have identified as witches.

Back in the 90s some UK schools were teaching about the "burning times" as if real witches were burned (in fact many falsely accused of witchcraft in the UK and elsewhere were hanged rather than burned). These lessons were not based on reality and more than some of the gender woo woo that is peddled today is based in reality.

I know that a lot of people who are into the Red Tent, astrology, the Law of Attraction, and plastic shamanism claim to be witches. They can do whatever they like it is a free country, but comparing depictions of evil witches in children's books to gollywogs is offensive IMO.

OldCrony · 25/09/2020 13:23

Wizard of Oz has good and bad witches.

Goosefoot · 25/09/2020 13:20

Typically bad witches in stories are in league with some sort of dark powers. In more traditional versions with the devil or demons. Honestly I'm not sure why that is an issue, we also have stories like Dr Faustus which pretty much everyone agrees are worthwhile depictions of a type of evil with a lot of literary merit. One of the questions implied is what are the moral implications of magic more generally - can there even really be "white magic" as such?

Not that there is one right answer to that, but it's a worthwhile literary subject and children's books deserve important stories too.

SpaceOP · 25/09/2020 12:55

Well, I can only say that I've never seen witches as bad. I have no idea what I was reading as a child that meant I didn't absorb that idea but certainly I think I've always seen witches as powerful women, some good, some bad.

Thinking about it a little, it seems to me that many stories are about how people are trying to beat witches, but they're often difficult to do so. I mean, I think what I took from The Crucible as much as anything was that it was about the hysteria of a small town and the men wanting control.

And when witches WERE bad, they were flagged as such, "The Evil Witch" or "The Wicked Witch".

So I'd disagree 100% with your comment and concern.

OldQueen1969 · 25/09/2020 12:45

Fascinating subject and close to my heart.....

I know Youtube isn't everyone's cauldron of tea, but I really enjoyed a series of videos by In Praise of Shadows:

It's pretty thorough and looks at the whole subject through various lenses, there are three parts in all.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2020 12:24

it would be nice to see one single depiction of a step mother where they're not a villain/awful human being

Blimey... surely there's someone? The newest I can think is Jo in Little Men, but she's a step-aunt and doesn't treat Franz and Emil that differently from the other boys.

OldCrony · 25/09/2020 10:14

OP - could you name some children's books that you think portray witches in a less than favourable light?

rbe78 · 25/09/2020 10:03

Ah, children's books - the only place where step-mothers are more vilified than mumsnet!

Not too bothered about the depiction of witches in children's books - pretty sure kids can distinguish fantasy from reality - but it would be nice to see one single depiction of a step mother where they're not a villain/awful human being. Even modern children's books (e.g. David Walliams, Jacqueline Wilson etc.) consistently portray stepmothers negatively.

More of an issue than witches I think, given 1 in 10 children in the UK have a step family...

Babdoc · 25/09/2020 09:44

I can’t believe nobody has recommended the Pongwiffy series of books by Kaye Umansky! Pongwiffy is a hilarious witch, with a familiar, Hugo, who is a hamster rather than the traditional cat. She and her friends are very much the heroines of their stories. There are some smug male wizards too. I was in stitches reading them to my DDs 25 years ago. Definitely not “woman bashing” books.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2020 09:29

I meant to say male characters created by female authors.duh.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2020 09:29

On a side note isn’t it interesting that some of the female characters I see as being the most nuanced, strong and feminist were created by a man? I’m not at all sure how I feel about that!

I feel the same as I do about nuanced, strong characters who've been created by great female authors. Smile

NewlyGranny · 25/09/2020 09:21

Oh, contactusdeletus, that moment in the old BBC Narnia videos where the witch says "You can always get them back!" in Thatcher's voice...😲😂👍

NewlyGranny · 25/09/2020 09:18

Interesting that, throughout history, women with wisdom who wield power are commonly supposed to have acquired their influence from an outside source; the wimminz couldn't have learned all that by their own selves, after all, could they, with their boofy little pink girl brains?!

Brandaris · 25/09/2020 09:11

Errol oh absolutely Nanny Ogg isn’t suitable for young children, Im rapidly growing into her though whether I like it or not! She was just one of the better witch depictions that came to mind in contrast to the Grimm brothers style one dimensional nasty witch characters.

On a side note isn’t it interesting that some of the female characters I see as being the most nuanced, strong and feminist were created by a man? I’m not at all sure how I feel about that!

contactusdeletus · 25/09/2020 08:29

This is an interesting topic. I completely take your point, but I came of age at a time when the archetype of "the witch" was being remade as something more positive in children's fiction, so that's my first association.

"Witch" books that spring to mind immediately:

  • Meg and Mog, rhyming picture books I loved as a baby
  • The Worst Witch series
  • Harry Potter
  • Witch Child, by Celia Rees (a historical YA novel focusing on the Salem witch trials)
  • The Tiffany Aching Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.
  • Serafina Pekkala and the witches who rescue Lyra in His Dark Materials.

There were, of course, older books where "the wicked witch" did appear as a trope. The Narnia books are an obvious one, and the Roald Dahl book "The Witches".

I have mixed feelings about the latter. While I don't think Dahl went out of his way to write a feminist book (far from it) I do think he unwittingly does some positive things with it. I like that the boy's grandmother (a rather unfeminine old woman) is the hero of the story. Her intelligence and observance, her ability to love and reassure her grandson even when he is turned into a mouse, and her refusal to give up even when the system seems so rigged against her and she can't even be taken seriously if she tries to name the problem . . . all this exemplifies the "women's wisdom" and courage I imagine real life witches possessed.

Reading it as a child, I also found the witches thrilling, I'll admit. I enjoyed reading the gleeful depictions of their ugliness, in a era when women are supposed to be beautiful above all else. I enjoyed that the falseness of that was shown - that the books challenge the idea that beautiful = good. And it was a little bit thrilling to read about this secret network of women who hated children and motherhood, and were free to be as nasty as they wanted about it in private. I enjoyed them immensely. Yes, they got their comeuppance, but in my young eyes they had taken it a step too far into the realms of actual child killing, so . . . shrugs They were my favourite Dahl villains, way better than the boring male giants in the BFG. The witches had DIMENSION, as did the evil old grandma I'm George's Marvellous Medicine, and Trunchbull in Matilda. I loved them as a kid, and felt they gave the stories all their fun.

Similarly, I really enjoyed Jadis (the White Witch) in The Magicians Nephew. Yes, she was a bully, but she was primarily bullying Diggory's patriarchal, bullying old uncle, and it was very satisfying to watch him get a taste of his own medicine. I also enjoyed that the witch couldn't be fully defeated at the end of the novel. She was something older and more unknowable than Narnia itself, and would always be a part of the world. (Yes, she was being used as a metaphor for evil, but the unintended consequence was that Lewis wrote this powerful, indefeatable woman into the very foundations of the world. I read it as a child and felt really excited by the idea that she'd always be back, like the Terminator. Grin )

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2020 00:12

Xpost Grin

ErrolTheDragon · 25/09/2020 00:09

@Brandaris

Depends on the witch. I draw a lot of feminist inspiration from Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax. My daughter thinks I’m a witch as I can do ‘magic’.

But yes, the traditional witch stories are a bit grim, and not something I would choose to read to my children.

Nanny Ogg isn't quite suitable for children's fiction.Grin

But don't forget Tiffany Aching!

hagsrus0 · 25/09/2020 00:08

Tiffany Aching

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 25/09/2020 00:02

My mum said exactly the same about The Witches teezletangler!

But as to the OP's question, I'd agree that the portrayals are so varied now and including so many positive and fun ones that I don't see it as an issue. Am just thinking of JK Rowling too where the wizards and witches are seen as equals.

HecatesHat · 24/09/2020 23:54

Sorry, here's the article @Goingdooolally www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/12/dark-charms-why-writers-are-spellbound-by-witches

SadSongsAndWaltzes · 24/09/2020 23:54

This is a beautiful book about witches - both "good" but flawed and "bad" but sort of redeemable: www.goodreads.com/book/show/28110852-the-girl-who-drank-the-moon

HecatesHat · 24/09/2020 23:54

@Goingdooolally

What an interesting thread. I too loved witch tales. Much more interesting than princesses. I loved dark fairytales too. Any recommendations for an adult to dip back in? I have only boys myself so never really read much more witch fiction than Harry Potter.
I enjoyed this article, but haven't read any of the recommendations, yet! The Witches of Eastwick is a controversial choice, although I still love the film 🤷🏼‍♀️
Toontown · 24/09/2020 23:52

Just avoid the Disney shite and traditional fairy tales. managed it with mine and they have a very positive witch image thanks to Harry potter and others.

Goingdooolally · 24/09/2020 23:47

I went to this exhibition a while back
www.nationalgalleries.org/exhibition/witches-wicked-bodies