Mermaids and the evolving understanding of gender identity.

Thanks @rogdmum

Could all please archive/ screenshot anything that's relevant and would now be against guidance, mermaids or any other organisation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4030690-NHS-independent-review-into-childrens-gender-ID-services

Sally Hines latest twitter eruption on the topic (polite translation: you are all too stupid to understand why we never said this) currently at odds with Mermaids reverse reverse ferreting.

Neuro I’ve DM’d you

Datun thingybob

Wow, this thread has been eye opening. I didn't know about 'gender euphoria' but I understand know, thanks to your explanations. Isn't this 'condition' and its motivation completely separate from the language about desperate unhappiness and suicidal tendencies often used to bolster TRA claims? Also does it not imply zero desire for surgery?

@rogdmum does that exist on a link anywhere?

Can someone tell my what ‚the events of this week‘ are that apparently precipited this?
(Sorry for not being better informed).
I have gathered that the government‘s School guidelines have changed and they say ,,don‘t work with Organizations that [do what mermaids does]‘‘
Is there something Else that happened? Or is there a background story on how that change in the school guidelines came about? (I obviously followed the brave struggle of women and the organizing oVer the past years, but it looked like a lost struggle. To be clear, I was on the sidelines because I live in another country. And I see all that played out in the UK slowly come to us...).
Thank you in advance for any insights you can give.

When you are born, it’s decided whether you’re a boy or a girl, based on the way your body looks. But for some people, looks can be deceiving and they’re given the wrong gender.

If words are used correctly in a statement, you can replace a word with its definition and still have the statement make sense.

So gender is accepted to refer to the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex, and imposed on us by society. If this new Mermaids claim was at all coherent, using this definition instead of gender would result in a statement that also made sense.

When you are born, it’s decided whether you’re a boy or a girl, based on the way your body looks. But for some people, looks can be deceiving and society imposes the wrong sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes on them.

Yeah. Me neither.

What RedToothBrush said.

God, the gender crits are so thick they actually thought we meant x when we said that...

So far as I recall, it's feminists who've been querying the need for surgery to treat a metaphor all along. TRA called us bigots and said we didn't understand. I've been called transphobic by trans people and allies alike for pointing out that 'born in the wrong body' is and always was a metaphor. This whole bloody mess has come about because of their insistence that it was a literal truth that needed bringing into material being through surgery and hormones.

Still, at least they've caught in at last. Now, perhaps they'd like to answer the question: if it's just a metaphor and there's nothing wrong actually physically wrong with the body, why the fuck are they advocating for surgical treatments?

This ideology is based on sexist homophobic tripe.

You can't say that someone is a lesbian if they were born male. It starts and ends there.
You can't say that its not about stereotypes and sexism if you are talking about toys and clothes.
And you can't say its not sexist if its men who can say what they are, but lesbians and women who can not define themselves and are reduced to being a feeling in the head rather than material reality of the body you were born with.
You can't say its not sexist if you have men and pregnant people and menstrators.

The Goodwin Sands are more consistent than trans ideology

I remember Mermaids retweeting a video of 3 teen siblings, one was trans, the brother said his sister (now trans boy) had always been interested in "boys sports". That pissed me off. Wtf is a "boys sport"?

I also remember them tweeting an article about Helen Mirren which was presented as her supporting the trans stuff, but it wasn't really, even if she thought it was, it was all mixed up. Anyway one of the examples she gave was about men being the good map readers. That pissed me off also. Here's the article www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/01/dame-helen-mirren-really-wants-you-to-know-trans-women-are-women/

Dame Helen Mirren really wants you to know that trans women are women
OCTOBER 1, 2019
Dame Helen Mirren has said she’s “not a TERF” and trans women are women in an interview with the Radio Times
The 74-year-old actor also said that gender and sexuality are both on a spectrum.
“I came to the conclusion an awfully long time ago that there is black and there is white, and we’re all somewhere in the middle in a wonderful mix of male and female,” Mirren said.

“There is no such thing as binary sexuality, when you’re male or female. I don’t believe that at all.”

She continued: “I think I was very lucky to be in my world, the world of acting and drama, because I think an awful lot of actors have male and female in them. A lot of great actors, great masculine actors, are actually very feminine.

“Great heartthrobs have a very present feminine side to them. A lot of very strong female actors, have a very strong male side to them.”

Mirren, who previously played Queen Elizabeth II in 2006’s The Queen, added that she does possess some attributes which could be perceived as masculine.

“I hate to talk about my feelings, I never want to go to the doctor, and I’m a brilliant map-reader,” she said. “I have a lot of what people might call male qualities. But I certainly look like a woman.”

Mirren has been a vocal feminist throughout her career. When questioned on the subject of trans rights and older feminists, Mirren was very clear.

“Do you mean Germaine Greer saying women are women and men are men?” she asked.

“Well, she didn’t quite say that,” Mirren went on to clarify, “but if being a TERF [trans-exclusionary radical feminist] is not accepting that trans women are women then I’m not a TERF.”

On The Graham Norton Show on September 27, Helen Mirren talked about Drag Race UK and was given her drag name by RuPaul himself – Sir Lady Cheek Bones. "

www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-10-01/helen-mirren-sexuality/

No one ever said that....

We put it that way to try and help people understand but it's not actually that....

That is what we have been saying all along....

What a ridiculous thing to suggest that...

I have never heard anyone say that....

God, the gender crits are so thick they actually thought we meant x when we said that....

They were pretty clear a few years ago- it’s having a girl brain in a boy body!

TRAs right now:

No one ever said that....

We put it that way to try and help people understand but it's not actually that....

That is what we have been saying all along....

What a ridiculous thing to suggest that...

I have never heard anyone say that....

God, the gender crits are so thick they actually thought we meant x when we said that....

Trans ideology has to be the most fickle thing I have ever seen.

Biological sex is a spectrum, it's definitely not binary.... Duh, nobody ever said biological sex isn't real, of course its real.

Children who are born in the wrong body need irreversible drugs and surgery otherwise they will kill themselves.... Duh, no one ever said children are born in the wrong body and obviously being trans isn't a mental illness.

Signs that your child may be trans include them being drawn to toys or clothes of the opposite sex.... Duh, transgenderism is nothing to do with gender stereotypes and nobody ever said it was.

They keep changing the goalposts of what it is to be trans, they keep telling us what it isn't, but can never seem to be able to tell us what it is.

Its getting rather tedious now I have to say.

It's just a language difference, Siablue, with the caveat that language shapes our understanding of the world and of ourselves.

If everyone shared Rose of Dawn's view - which looks like a much healthier and more self-aware position than many people with a trans identity have managed - we'd be in a very different place right now.

I’d also like to know why Susie Green refers children to the Tavi if their own GP won’t. What are her qualifications to make referrals?

twitter.com/mermaidsparent/status/1309589870378188801?s=21

(Photo shows Susie saying “If your GP refuses to refer to the Tavistock then I can do it for you.” and another with Susie saying, “Dave we can refer”)

Oh dear.
It just needs ONE court case to go the distance.

I hope someone has the guts to do it and to make the house of cards collapse.

If one court case causes Mermaids to unravel, what else does that cause to unravel as people who supported Mermaids distance themselves from other things that might 'be a bit messy'?

Does trans stay as the trendy thing to support? Or is it PR potential damaged?

There are solictors willing to take this on? Wow. Thats important. Sounds like an unexplored field in the UK. It might be an opportunity to make a name for yourself as breaking a massive scandal... if you were up for doing that or its a great atm machine.

The problem is though is precisely the house of cards.

I think there are cases in the US where people are suing for negligence but they've been directed towards medical practitioners not lobby groups charities. I think that is where it all gets more difficult.

How do you go about proving that a charity influenced behaviour and is legally liable when you also have another gatekeeper further down the line with medical professionals? In terms of safeguarding where does the buck stop? The charities commission? Local authorities who failed to step in? Other organisations who didn't identify a problem? There's a pretty big list of people who didn't do due diligence if it ends up with Mermaids getting taken to pieces in court.

Not forgetting they've already survived one criticism by explaining it away as an isolated incident.

We have lots of people with a vested interest. Lots of people who won't want a potential case to hit a court, because if it hits a court and Mermaids are found to be up to their necks in a world of shit, then what happens?

The pressure to get an out of court settlement or something else to make the problem 'go away' would be intense. I expect the smear campaign against the potential claimant would be horrendous...

Trouble is the continued existence of Mermaids is a fundamental problem. It can either be wound down or it remains as a potential ticking timebomb. Hence it being an easy atm to make claims vanish.

Mermaids also can't just be suddenly closed for that reason either. It has to continue and either disappear slowly whilst reverse ferreting. A sudden closure draws bad publicity and attention.

My point here is that a lot of people have a lot to lose and no one wants to end up with egg on their face... this still has a lot of factors which although a court case would be a sight to behold, the chance of getting a court judgment, are one that I still feel slim.

All the same I watch hopefully that someone will still do it, realising the extent of the importance of doing so.

People are so suckered into this nonsense that Mermaids just have to continue to exist, and they make money.

As long as they stick to the script people won't read up too heavily if its the trendy cause. As long as its the trendy cause.

But then people like to vote for unicorns and swear blind they knew what they were voting for all along.

Is it only that they say they are?

Yes, this is the entirety of it. When it comes to identity politics, the only thing that counts is what you say your identity is. (The exception to this is that only special people can choose their identity, non-special people have to accept the identities imposed on them.)

Put simply, you can be anything you want to be so long as you're a special person. Who is special and who is not is a nightmare that is all about the exercise of power which fluctuates continually.

If you want to know how to deal with such a confusing situation, the answer would be to avoid situations and people who are playing these games. Or if you have the inclination and the means to resist, then prepare yourself for a fight.

You haven’t missed anything sia. It’s all bollocks and you’ve seen through it. It’s that scene in the Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls the curtain back and they see it’s just an old man. There is no wizard.

[quote SunsetBeetch]A counter-argument from a trans activist:

medium.com/@Chican3ry/born-in-the-wrong-body-76b858cae49d[/quote]
So the point of Mallory’s article is that in the trans community and in gender studies a lot of people dislike and have critiqued the problem that you are born in the wrong body. That’s fine and I accept that although that is the line that Mermaids did push.

What she did not say is what they did see being transgender as. How is their position different from ours? The only explanation of what being transgender means that have understood is Rose of Dawns which is that you have gender dysphoria and you transition to help you deal with that. They don’t like that and her. What makes someone trans?

How am I (some one who is female but very gender non conforming and wanting to break out of stereotypes) different from someone who is non binary? Is it only that they say they are? Is that all? Please help. The watchers on Twitter I am genuinely lost. I am autistic and I know a lot of trans people and one detransitioned person. The explanations I have been given are all the dysphoria wrong body, gender stereotypes one that are now oh so wrong.