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Mermaids and the evolving understanding of gender identity.

313 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/09/2020 20:11

Given recent events, I thought it would be interesting to trawl the Wayback Machine and see how the organisation has developed over time with regards to diagnosing children as transgender.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

2009
Gender Identity Disorders in infancy, childhood and adolescence are complex and have varied causes: in the majority of cases the eventual outcome will be homosexuality or bisexuality, but often there will be a heterosexual outcome as some gender issues can be caused by a bereavement, a dysfunctional family life, or (rarely) by abuse. Only a small proportion of cases will result in a transsexual outcome
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090307015630/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/gidca.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20090307015630/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/gidca.html

2010
Gender dyphoria, also known as Gender Identity Disorder, applies to someone who is unhappy with their biological sex and who wishes to belong to the other one.

Gender Identity is the sense of belief that "I am male" or "I am female". A child becomes aware of its gender identity before or around the age of five years, in many cases as early as 2 or 3 years of age. In most people their gender identity is the same as their sex, i.e. a woman or girl feels she is female and a man or boy feels he is male, but in a few people their gender identity and their sex do not match, and this can cause problems.

Gender Identity Issues vary considerably, some may be transient in nature, and some may not. They may arise when a child exhibits cross-gender behaviour to some degree or other. Some may be boys who prefer to take the female role or vice versa; others may have a compulsion to play with toys mostly used by the other sex (for instance, a boy who predominantly plays with dolls or a girl who always plays with action men and 'army toys'). Some children may only feel comfortable when playing with peers of the other physical sex, or may cross-dress from time to time.

Some children may be unhappy about their own biological sex and either wish to belong to the other one, or feel that they actually do; some adolescents may experience a crisis over a problem of gender identity or sexual orientation, or both. These situations can lead to considerable concern and distress for all those involved.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100718215911/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/New%20Mermaids/whatisgid.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20100718215911/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/New%20Mermaids/whatisgid.htm

2012
For example, your daughter may say that she wants to be a boy, or your son may identify himself as a girl. Or perhaps you are worried about your child's cross gender behaviour, but they won't discuss it with you, and instead are isolated and withdrawn.

Or it may be you, as a young person, and you feel that your body is wrong, and that you should have been a girl if you were born a boy, or a boy if you were born a girl.
(Added to 2010 description)
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20121109215055/mermaidsuk.org.uk/index.php/what-is-gender-dysphoria" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20121109215055/mermaidsuk.org.uk/index.php/what-is-gender-dysphoria

They seem to have removed their page about gender dysphoria sometime after 2016. However, we can glean some information about how to diagnose children from their parent testimonials

2019
"Kelly"
“From the age of two we started to notice that Evie didn’t quite fit in. I thought that my son was going to be gay, but it became apparent that there was something more than that.

“Evie always wanted to play with dolls, and never had any interest in traditional boys toys, like cars or dinosaurs. We had an older son and the two could not have been more different.

“Evie loved bracelets and constantly wanted to wear one, and when I bought the children Guess Who? to play she unclipped all the female faces and put them in a handbag to carry around with her.

“Evie would look longingly at other little girls who were wearing dresses or skirts, and every time I picked her up from the childminder she would be have raided the dressing up box for a princess costume. She would come to the door to meet me in a sparkly pink dress and a tiara with a big smile on her face.

“At other children’s houses she would love putting on the princess outfits, and would have a meltdown when she had to take them off as it was time to leave.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html

"Denise"
“We didn’t notice Sally having any particular problems or issues as she was growing up, but her primary school was very small and the classes were mixed together in infants, so there was no real distinction between boys and girls or age groups.

“But looking back I can see there were pointers. Sally always wanted to play with the dressing up box, and she always wanted to be a princess. She always wanted long hair too.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190301090129/www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/parents-voices.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
merrymouse · 26/09/2020 14:23

Unfortunately The NHS website is still giving incoherent advice and confusing gender identity with personality and interests.

www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/think-your-child-might-be-trans-or-non-binary/

"We now believe that gender identity is on a spectrum, with male at one end, female at the other and a "diversity" of gender identities in between. These can include male and female, non-binary or even agender (no gender).

A young child's exploration of different gender identities is quite common and, in most cases, will fade. However, in some, it will continue into later childhood and adolescence."

I'd love to hear them explain what a 'female' gender identity is without sounding sexist.

nauticant · 26/09/2020 14:05

Yes, it has long been the TRA position, well, for some of them. However, it's not what's been put in front of the public, the public have been told it's all about Jazz Jennings and vulnerable transsexuals. Therefore, that's how the public see it.

It would be a game changer if the public started to see what the TRA position really is and how Jazz Jennings and vulnerable transsexuals is simply a distraction. This might now be a bit more likely.

merrymouse · 26/09/2020 14:04

This means that a gender non-conforming woman who has short cropped hair, "men's clothes", and "men's interests" is not trans unless she considers herself to be trans. Equally a woman whose entire life is geared to be a living embodiment of stereotypical femininity is trans if that's what she considers herself to be.

Certainly the only people who seem to have been challenged on their trans status are people who have openly expressed gender critical views.

SunsetBeetch · 26/09/2020 14:01

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

Yep, that's always been the TRA line.

If an individual believes her- or himself to meet the terms of the descriptor "trans" then that person is trans. Anything else would be an exception to our acceptance of them, to mangle a slogan.

Which means 'being trans' is defined as possessing a particular belief or understanding about one's internal experience.

It's a belief, a worldview, a subjective opinion - not a literal objective fact.

Which takes us back to the question: why are they advocating for serious, life-altering, sterilising surgical modifications to minors on the basis of a belief system?

Ahhh don't you just love circular definitions?
TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 26/09/2020 13:54

Yep, that's always been the TRA line.

If an individual believes her- or himself to meet the terms of the descriptor "trans" then that person is trans. Anything else would be an exception to our acceptance of them, to mangle a slogan.

Which means 'being trans' is defined as possessing a particular belief or understanding about one's internal experience.

It's a belief, a worldview, a subjective opinion - not a literal objective fact.

Which takes us back to the question: why are they advocating for serious, life-altering, sterilising surgical modifications to minors on the basis of a belief system?

SunsetBeetch · 26/09/2020 12:47

@nauticant

This is a paraphrase of Mermaids' position on their website:

If your gender identity does not match the one you were given at birth that’s called transgender

or more concisely:

You are transgender if your gender identity does not match your sex

This means that there is one thing that distinguishes a trans person from a "cis" person. That is whether a person considers themselves to be trans. There is nothing else. This means that a gender non-conforming woman who has short cropped hair, "men's clothes", and "men's interests" is not trans unless she considers herself to be trans. Equally a woman whose entire life is geared to be a living embodiment of stereotypical femininity is trans if that's what she considers herself to be.

Two things follow from this. Firstly this position is not incompatible with the new DfE guidance*. Secondly people like Yaniv, Muscato, and Murray are "Mermaids trans" irrespective of how they appear or what they do. The only thing to be taken into account is what they say they believe about themselves.

In going with this approach Mermaids are building a trap for themselves. All it will take is one well-briefed interviewer and it will be clear to all that Mermaids' position, a trans person is a person who says they are trans, drives a coach and horses through safeguarding. What's changed is that with this restatement, Mermaids are giving up their traditional human shields of fey "transgirls" and vulnerable transsexuals. They would also appear to be giving up the requirement of gender dysphoria but expect them to continue to cling on to that. We are approaching the point where someone might be able to make Mermaids make a clear public statement of what they are campaigning for.

  • Well, apart from "Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be ... evidence based"
That is the accepted TRA position, however, isn't it?
BovaryX · 26/09/2020 12:20

@queenofknives

The fact that Sally Hines can rant mad abuse but still has a job as an educator when other women have been sacked for politely expressing scientific truths tells you everything you need to know about the condition of free speech in this country.
The Twitter content really is shocking. Abusive and incoherent spring to mind. Imagine having so many shop worn cliches rattling around on a feedback loop in your brain?
Gwynfluff · 26/09/2020 11:55

Just a couple of clarifications, postmodernism and poststructuralist thought did emerge in the 1960s! Not sure the early thinkers claimed it was new as it is premised in contingency! And it came out of a philosophic tradition stretching back to Heidegger, Nietzsche and kieketgaard. For me, the best of the tradition was trying to work out why the material reality (the structure) was still so oppressive despite liberation movements going back a 100 years. And some of that was that power played out through other forces in society - discourse, text, art and culture.

deepwatersolo · 26/09/2020 11:42

A review into the NHS provision of gender identity services for children was also announced this week. Mermaids might be investigated as part of this as they have offered to refer children to GIDS and there have been accusations that they have coached children about what to say in order to be prescribed puberty blockers.

Thank you for that info, OldCrone! Ok, so that means some things have come together for them... Interesting to see. Sure wonder, whether that will bring a broader change in discourse. (Maybe we'll live to see the TRAs realize that 'female penis' isn't a thing...)

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2020 11:42

@testing987654321

https://mobile.twitter.com/sally_hines/status/1309598403299606528

Just went to see what Sally Hines was saying. Doesn't that just fail basic standards that you'd expect of academics? I would not be inclined to be educated by this person.

Sounds like a perfectly logical, rational, unemotional explaination on the basis of data and reason that a professional academic give.

Oh wait no, its just someone screaming like a 3 year old about why won't anyone listen to them in a rather abusive and nasty fashion with a touch of arrogant elitism heaped on top as the icing on the cake.

FindTheTruth · 26/09/2020 11:30

will this help? I could whip up some more . . .

Mermaids and the evolving understanding of gender identity.
nauticant · 26/09/2020 11:11

This is a paraphrase of Mermaids' position on their website:

If your gender identity does not match the one you were given at birth that’s called transgender

or more concisely:

You are transgender if your gender identity does not match your sex

This means that there is one thing that distinguishes a trans person from a "cis" person. That is whether a person considers themselves to be trans. There is nothing else. This means that a gender non-conforming woman who has short cropped hair, "men's clothes", and "men's interests" is not trans unless she considers herself to be trans. Equally a woman whose entire life is geared to be a living embodiment of stereotypical femininity is trans if that's what she considers herself to be.

Two things follow from this. Firstly this position is not incompatible with the new DfE guidance*. Secondly people like Yaniv, Muscato, and Murray are "Mermaids trans" irrespective of how they appear or what they do. The only thing to be taken into account is what they say they believe about themselves.

In going with this approach Mermaids are building a trap for themselves. All it will take is one well-briefed interviewer and it will be clear to all that Mermaids' position, a trans person is a person who says they are trans, drives a coach and horses through safeguarding. What's changed is that with this restatement, Mermaids are giving up their traditional human shields of fey "transgirls" and vulnerable transsexuals. They would also appear to be giving up the requirement of gender dysphoria but expect them to continue to cling on to that. We are approaching the point where someone might be able to make Mermaids make a clear public statement of what they are campaigning for.

  • Well, apart from "Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be ... evidence based"
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/09/2020 11:03

Yes, my eyebrows nearly disappeared into my hairline when I saw that Prof H had been able to move from Leeds to Sheffield last year. Review of social media not carried out as part of recruitment process, maybe? From my past experience of working in HE (not as an academic), I'd say her huge grant may have been a big lure. No idea whether she produces research that would do well in the REF or whatever it's called now.

lanadelgrey · 26/09/2020 11:02

I think I now understand the new Mermaid’s position. Easily encapsulated in Rachel Rooney’s rather wonderful My Body Is Me. Grin

queenofknives · 26/09/2020 10:52

The fact that Sally Hines can rant mad abuse but still has a job as an educator when other women have been sacked for politely expressing scientific truths tells you everything you need to know about the condition of free speech in this country.

nauticant · 26/09/2020 10:07

Since Mermaids restated their position I was thinking that we would be in for another classic Sally Hines Friday night.

highame · 26/09/2020 09:48

Anyone?

NHS enquiry (sorry can't remember who's leading it) must be causing Mermaids much distress, they will be caught in a real bind. Enquiries tend to bring out the past and the fact that they have overridden DoE with their interpretations will be out there for all to see. Nowhere to hide, and they know it

There must be some real sadness for that small number of people who have Gender Dysphoria. Why did they get caught up in this? The rush to get everyone on board has meant that many have just been trampled underfoot.

MondayYogurt · 26/09/2020 09:41

It's very easy to go to twitter advanced search, exact phrase "born in the wrong body" + dates: 2015-2018 and see just how many TRAS actively used that rhetoric.

mobile.twitter.com/search?lang=en&q=%22born%20in%20the%20wrong%20body%22%20until%3A2018-09-26%20since%3A2015-09-26&src=typed_query

napody · 26/09/2020 09:39

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

Well, I certainly don't identify with the social construction of girlhood that's foisted on us by others from birth onwards. According to Mermaids I'm trans.

They'd make a lot more sense if they jettisoned the word 'gender' and explained in plain English.

'Gender dysphoria' is the function-crippling inability to meet the behavioural and presentational requirements our society attaches to our sex.

Perfectly easy to understand. To reduce it to "being uncomfortable" is like calling debilitating depression "being a bit sad". And reducing it to an identity renders any analysis of the causes off-limits.

Brilliant. No need for mystical identities at all, this has real explanatory power. We all know that the 4000% rise in FtM teenagers is about exactly this.
BovaryX · 26/09/2020 09:37

OldCrone

Yes, I agree. It is so manipulative.

ButcherManWasSomeLady · 26/09/2020 09:32

Sally Hines is the gift that keeps on giving.

Who the fuck would want SH batting for them?

Kit19 · 26/09/2020 09:28

@testing987654321

https://mobile.twitter.com/sally_hines/status/1309598403299606528

Just went to see what Sally Hines was saying. Doesn't that just fail basic standards that you'd expect of academics? I would not be inclined to be educated by this person.

If I tweeted out stuff like that on a social media account where my job & place of work was recognised I’d be fire but Sally has done this sort of stuff many times & strangely remains, it seems, unsackable
Siablue · 26/09/2020 09:25

Thank you for explaining to me. I honestly don’t see why the Professor can’t just say this is what Transgender means. I understand that it means different things for different people and that is fine. People describe their sexuality in different ways I know people who say they were born gay but some people say it is a choice.

I think the Guardian article is really good and balanced. How do you explain what being trans is to children? You can’t give them Professor Hines’ gender studies text book. I do wonder if Mermaids will go back to adopting a more subtle approach.

ButcherManWasSomeLady · 26/09/2020 09:21

Aren't archives a wonderful thing?

testing987654321 · 26/09/2020 09:20

mobile.twitter.com/sally_hines/status/1309598403299606528

Just went to see what Sally Hines was saying. Doesn't that just fail basic standards that you'd expect of academics? I would not be inclined to be educated by this person.