In GENERAL terms, all forms of surrogacy, altruistic included, is problematic

merrymouse

www.organdonation.nhs.uk/get-involved/news/500-people-have-now-donated-a-kidney-to-a-stranger/

I've answered my own question.

I regularly have dealings with people with kidney problems at my work. Not dialysis. Surgical type interventions. People needing a kidney removed for primary cancer for instance. Or an intervention to help protect their remaining kidney when one is damaged.

Whilst I would donate a kidney to my children or other family members in a heartbeat, I'd never donate to a stranger just for the sake of it.
Two kidneys means you have a spare. Just in case. Things happen. I've known someone get stabbed in one kidney.

I really wouldn't recommend doing it. The exception being an occasion when the NHS works out a complicated chain, where someone who isn't a match for their own family member but who is a match for another person on the transplant list whose relative happens to be a match for someone else and it ends up being a full circle - the NHS really can work wonders, I have known someone be in a chain of four. Brilliant.

Thank you so much for your openness, taking on the questions and those fascinating, comprehensive answers.

I was and remain very curious.

We had a surrogacy agreement. You cannot have a surrogacy contract in UK law. It was hugely helpful and comprehensive and independently facilitated by an experienced surrogate. It covered everything from antenatal tests, termination, announcing the birth, expenses, finding out the gender, planning the funeral.... a level of planning I never went into with my own pregnancies, but which ensured we were all aligned in our thinking before we started treatment.

Planning the funeral?

Dying?

That sounds darker than me asking who you gave your baby to. That may seem a an offensive way of putting it, and it is not my intent to cause deliberate upset. However, I do want to be blunt. The plain-speaking business of surrogacy is people who want kids making agreements with women they intend to impregnate so those mothers will give up the resulting child at birth. Will this baby you gave to your friends know that you're its birth mother?

What did your agreement mean, in real terms? What would have happened if you didn't meet any of your points? What would have happened if your friends no longer wanted to meet part of their points?

I'm a solicitor, am an equity partner in my own firm with a very successful husband who earns three times what I do. I have one dog, two degrees and three children.

I've been an altruistic surrogate, twice.

I know this doesn't make a "flurry" of "rich, successful women" but I'm certainly not the only one out there.

fail to see how it would have been exploitation in this case.

No it doesn't sound like it would have been but a law has to cover every single case in the nation and has to be able to deal with everything: all the motivations women might have, all the potential outcomes. The fact that there are unproblematic cases still leaves the problematic ones.

But how can you dissociate yourself fromthe child you are growing in your body.

The kicks the hiccups

The wanting to protect that baby growing in your body

The thinking every week well now my baby has toes or can do this

Must take such a toll to cut yourself off from these feelings

You’re basically assuming that because you and your intended parents successfully completed a pregnancy, had an arrangement that didn’t need to be challenged in court, and no one suffered any medical consequences then it’s feasible for every other arrangement to be as successful.

No I’m not.

I answered a series of questions asked of me.

I haven’t made any comment about other arrangements or frameworks. And it’s late now so I won’t start posting about that tonight.

[quote Anon992]@NotBadConsidering We discussed ALL of your scenarios and many more when we developed our surrogacy agreement. I also took out life insurance (paid for by my IPs).

No pregnancy is risk free. Life is not risk free. We all take risks all the time - when we cross the road, get behind the wheel of the car.[/quote]

How much comfort would the life insurance have been to your children if you'd died in childbirth?

Again. I post this link.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/20/us/surrogate-mom-dies-trnd/index.html

San Diego. 2020.

I'm also curious how you'll react if/when the baby you birthed comes to you with questions in a decade or two.

Or even, if they're aware from a young age of their unusual birth circumstances, how you'd feel if they turned up at your door at 11pm on a Monday night age 16 because they'd had a fight with their parents and want to come stay with you.

When looking at the idea as a general principle, it doesn’t seem right, however there are cases where a woman has a medical condition that means pregnancy and child birth is life threading, e.g. cystic fibrosis, heart and lung issues, etc. These women are relatively well thanks to medication and if they were men and all that were required of them would be to ejaculate, they could become parents. Instead they are potentially denied this because they have a health condition PLUS they are biologically female. In these circumstances I think surrogacy could be valid.

A Cafcass report noted the following:

"A clear example of the constraints on the court in determining whether the HFEA s54 criteria are met is the level of payments made to the surrogate as part of the arrangement. The data showed that this was often high and that payments are either accepted as reasonable expenses or authorised retrospectively by the court in order to secure the best outcome for the child. The retrospective authorisation by the court of commercial payments for surrogacy highlights the dilemma faced by the court that by acting in the interests of individual children born through surrogacy arrangements, they may be undermining the regulations prohibiting commercial surrogacy which serve to uphold children’s rights in general, preventing children being acquired for payment. It should also be noted that the high costs associated with
surrogacy mean that surrogacy as a means to solving problems of involuntary childlessness is limited to those couples who are able to afford it."

www.cafcass.gov.uk/download/3848/

And it definitely adds up. I have a senior job and primark clothes are just not appropriate for my role. I spent about £1.2k on clothes shoes and underwear for during pregnancy and for after birth, until I fit back into my own clothes.

With respect though, many surrogate mothers aren't going to be the types of women in senior roles spending that much on clothes.

I have an itemised line by line breakdown which was good enough for the Family Court.

Family courts sign off whatever expenses are recorded. Sorry, for some reason I can't post screen shots just now, but the law Commission noted that whilst some people kept careful records of all their expenses, keeping receipts, others simply wrote "Expenses".

Try that on the tax man! Who incidentally may be interested in extra income of £20K. And if a woman is on benefits the benefit agency have a lower acceptance of what constitutes allowable expenses.

@NotBadConsidering We discussed ALL of your scenarios and many more when we developed our surrogacy agreement. I also took out life insurance (paid for by my IPs).

No pregnancy is risk free. Life is not risk free. We all take risks all the time - when we cross the road, get behind the wheel of the car.

If a surrogate is self employed with no sick pay/needs to take a significant period of time off work

If the surrogate mother is employed why should her employer paid for these expenses? Because she fancies having a baby for someone else. Women fought hard for maternity rights, in the UK we are much better off than some countries and much worse off than others. This isn't what was intended when legislating for maternity rights. Employers paying out for someone else to buy a baby. What if the woman is a repeat surrogate mother and does it many times? There is one woman in the UK, a legal secretary, who has had TEN surrogate babies.

@witchesaremysisters

1) Talk us through your life circumstances at the time you made this decision (how did it come about, what was your employment, did you have children/a partner of your own, who suggested what, and what was your socio-economic status at the time)?

Happily married, post grad educated, home owner, high earner, full time education, two primary school aged children. My partner, children and parents and I discussed the situation before I offered to be a surrogate for my friends by writing them a letter. All were very supportive. Enough detail for you? I also took legal advice, took out life insurance, amended my will, had GP checks, medical screening and counselling before commencing treatment.

2) How did you find the parents?

Long term friends (15 years)

Who did you give your baby to and why?

I find question this SO offensive. I did not 'give' 'my baby' to anyone. I carried a pregnancy for close friends.

Do you have any contact with the child?

Yes very frequently. We exchange pictures and messages several times a week. We meet up regularly (only 4 times this year though due to COVID and them living a long way away.)

Was there any friction between you and these parents?

No never

Were there any agencies involved?

Do you mean social services? No, other than that CAFCASS did the report to support the Parental Order Hearing. This is standard.

3) Did you provide your gamete as well as carry the child?

No it was gestational surrogacy.

What was the pregnancy/childbirth like, were there any complications during? What about now/later on?

Smooth and straightforward, as with my own children. I have had 3 labours, none longer than 6 hours, no tearing, no medical interventions. Never been in hospital for more than half a day.

4) What was your financial compensation? If you went through an agency/clinic of some description, how much money did they take?

I did not pay any money to an agency. My compensation is my business but I have an itemised line by line breakdown which was good enough for the Family Court.

5) Did you have a contract? What was it like? Who brokered it (was it a legal firm, for example)?

We had a surrogacy agreement. You cannot have a surrogacy contract in UK law. It was hugely helpful and comprehensive and independently facilitated by an experienced surrogate. It covered everything from antenatal tests, termination, announcing the birth, expenses, finding out the gender, planning the funeral.... a level of planning I never went into with my own pregnancies, but which ensured we were all aligned in our thinking before we started treatment.

Could you abort the foetus for any reason?

Of course

Could you keep the baby if you wanted to?

Why would I want to keep someone else's baby?? If I wanted another baby I would have had one with my husband!

Were there stipulations/restrictions on your activities?

No - we discussed things like alcohol consumption etc when developing our agreement but ultimately it was up to me. Surrogacy requires a very high level of trust and understanding between the parties.

What happened if you didn't comply with some part of the contract (e.g. missed a medical appointment, had an alcoholic drink)?

Not applicable. You are thinking of commercial surrogacy (which exists in other countries but not in the UK.)

6)What parts of your pregnancy/childbirth care was delivered by the NHS and what by the private sector?

Counselling, screening, embryo transfer at a private clinic along with viability scan. The rest through the NHS - usual scans. Straightforward delivery in an NHS hospital then home to bed for a good night's sleep!

7) What do you do in terms of surrogacy now?

I don't understand the question. I was a surrogate but it is only one part of who I am. Mainly I work and look after my children! I am very proud though of the happy family I helped to create.

Have you ever recommended to any of your friends/other women that they should also be surrogates?

No. It is such a personal choice. If I was asked I would advise anyone thinking about it does a huge amount of research and soul searching. It is certainly not for everyone and not something I would ever 'recommend' - but I don't tend to 'recommend' how other people should live their lives anyway.

Do you speak in professional or organisational settings about your experiences to people who might be "embarking on a surrogacy journey"?

No

It’s de facto commercial in the UK already, with the high ‘expenses’.

Whoops. Forgot the screen shots.

Regarding "altruistic" surrogacy, the Law Commission recognised that lots of people make money off the back of surrogacy - lawyers, agencies, doctors and private IVF clinics. The woman,uniquely, is expected to do it all for free ...which could seem a little, er, exploitative.

So they are tying themselves in knots to come up with a legal fiction that the UK does not have commercial surrogacy, however surrogates are rewarded for their trouble, but it is only "expenses".

Anyone else spend £20k on being pregnant? ( No buying cots, buggies and nappies as there will be no baby. No paying medical expenses as that falls to the commissioning parents). Just the cost of being pregnant for nine months. 🤷‍♀️

Sorry but there is no way that pregnancy alone (where you don't have to buy anything at all for the baby itself) comes close to costing 15 grand.

Firstly - I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you did not add up the costs of your pregnancy (or separately itemise them on a spreadsheet and keep all your receipts). I did. I can tell you to the penny what mine cost. And it definitely adds up. I have a senior job and primark clothes are just not appropriate for my role. I spent about £1.2k on clothes shoes and underwear for during pregnancy and for after birth, until I fit back into my own clothes. Bras, tights, leggings, shoes (my feet swelled). Pregnancy pillow, birthing ball, parking at the hospital, travel costs. It adds up.

The biggest expenses that surrogates incur are often loss of earnings. That was certainly the case for us. My partner took 2 weeks of unpaid leave (not entitled to paternity leave for obvious reasons) to look after me and our existing children immediately after birth. That was £3k straight off.

If a surrogate is self employed with no sick pay/needs to take a significant period of time off work (e.g. if she has HG) then I can easily seen how expenses would reach this value.