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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Could someone genuinely please explain this to me...

38 replies

DanglySpider · 23/09/2020 00:09

Ok, so this might be a horrendous question, but I think that's what anonymous forums are supposed to be for, yes? So, (and this may be a stupid question, but I just honestly don't get it) - why are things like blackface, wearing other cultural hairstyles and clothes, and living your life as a black person when you're white, all considered to be heinous, but people of one gender choosing to wear the clothes, behave, and live their lives as another gender is ok? I'm probably completely misconstruing the differences, but it just seems a bit two-faced that one is wrong, but the other is totally acceptable. I've always thought of myself as someone who embraces diversity and people's rights of expression, but I'm really struggling to feel empathy with a lot of trans arguments that I've been seeing recently - the whole 'transwomen are women' and the 'they're women biologically' nonsense. Or am I just completely misunderstanding the whole thing and one is nothing like the other?

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ColleagueFromMars · 23/09/2020 15:04

Break the word TERF down. If you think feminism is the fight for the rights of natal women, you're a TERF. Is that such a bad thing? No, in my opinion. It's another smoke and mirrors job to claim that it is awful to want feminism to be for women.

notyourhandmaid · 23/09/2020 15:00

Expressing common sense views will get you branded as such, yes. Welcome to the dark side.

DanglySpider · 23/09/2020 14:16

Whoah - mindblown! I struggle to understand a lot of what DD's generation just completely accept, and it makes me feel very old and very conservative - which, as a liberal 45 year old woman working in the creative industries, I don't really consider myself to be, but I could be wrong! Nevertheless, I struggle to understand why or how her friend wants to transition from f to m, with binding, meds and waiting for surgery, even though they still fancy men, or her friend who self-ids as male, even though they still look exactly like a female, and I sometimes think that maybe I'm just old-fashioned, or just 'don't get it', but then I see the twitterati condemning JK for saying what seems to just be common sense - but I'm too afraid to pipe up in case it comes back to bite me ten years later in my career, or in case I get branded a TERF. But then I wonder - am I a TERF? I've always thought I was inclusive, and completely for equality and equal rights, and I support the equal marriage rights, but I'm just so confused by it all now - and it feels wrong, somehow - like we're being confused into accepting law changes so that men can erase women's rights, bit by bit. And it does all make me rather sad.

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sith789 · 23/09/2020 13:44

DeaconBoo
"Gender dysphoria is a condition of some trans people, but by no means all, and to say someone needs to have gender dysphoria to be transgender is apparently transphobic - that was what the self-id GRA reformers were arguing.
If you don't want to get your posts removed for transphobia it's worth bearing in mind, as you shouldn't generalise."

Oops, many thanks for telling me !

FeedTheSparrows · 23/09/2020 13:32

I have often asked myself this question too OP - and here is an article by another woman who has too: standpointmag.co.uk/issues/november-2019/blackface-is-evil-why-isnt-drag/

DeaconBoo · 23/09/2020 13:28

Oh, just realised sophocles made the same point!

DeaconBoo · 23/09/2020 13:27

@sith789

The former ie the blacking up is done to poke fun at one category of ppl ie reducing a whole bunch of people to a few stereotypical exaggerated traits and the other is called gender dysphoria, it is a condition.
Gender dysphoria is a condition of some trans people, but by no means all, and to say someone needs to have gender dysphoria to be transgender is apparently transphobic - that was what the self-id GRA reformers were arguing.

If you don't want to get your posts removed for transphobia it's worth bearing in mind, as you shouldn't generalise.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 23/09/2020 13:17

We aren't allowed to say. But google knows.

Google does know, but they'd prefer that you didn't, so searching for AGP requires a great deal of patience and tenacity before it turns up anything useful.

This article is a better place to start. medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

SophocIestheFox · 23/09/2020 13:03

It doesn’t make sense, dangly, that’s the maddening thing. There’s no coherence or logic. It’s absolutely not a medical condition, but it absolutely must be medically treated as a priority, wherever that is desired, even in children. It’s not in any way a mental health condition, but trans people are particularly vulnerable to suicide, self harm and mental ill health, so we have to be specially kind and understanding. A non binary person is trans, even though by declaring themselves non binary, they’re by definition not transitioning to or from anything, as they’re outside the binary.

All quite baffling.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/09/2020 12:59

It. just. seems. like. horseshit. What am I not seeing?

Probably just not the full depth of the horseshit.

OldCrony · 23/09/2020 12:51

We aren't allowed to say. But google knows.

DanglySpider · 23/09/2020 12:28

What's AGP, @ColleaguefromMars?

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DanglySpider · 23/09/2020 12:28

Ok - so if people are genuinely. miserable in the body they were born with, it seems fair enough that they get to transition into the gender they want to be, and I don't even feel it ought to be a 'condition' as such - they're not ill, and need curing, they genuinely want to be something they're not, and if science allows them to change their body to make them feel more comfortable, surely they should have the right to do that? I loved watching 'Pose' for many reasons, but one reason was that it highlighted how needlessly trans people have been often villified, ostracised and denied rights - all fair points. But there's a massive difference between that and someone who just wants to choose to be a man one day and a woman the next, and ok, fair enough, gender is a social construct, and therefore theoretically, is fluid and a choice - you get masculine women and feminine men etc. but I just fail to see how anyone can wake up and say 'Oh, I'm going to be 67% male today and tomorrow I'll be 73% female'. It. just. seems. like. horseshit. What am I not seeing?

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ColleagueFromMars · 23/09/2020 12:19

Nobody mention AGP, either Wink

SophocIestheFox · 23/09/2020 11:19

Not according to Stonewall, Sith.

“ [trans is] An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois”

Asserting that dysphoria is a fundamental part of being trans makes you transphobic, or truscum, if you are yourself dysphoric, according to Stonewall. Don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger.

sith789 · 23/09/2020 11:10

The former ie the blacking up is done to poke fun at one category of ppl ie reducing a whole bunch of people to a few stereotypical exaggerated traits and the other is called gender dysphoria, it is a condition.

Jaxhog · 23/09/2020 11:06

I've wondered this too. But hey, I can't actually become a black person. But a man can become a woman apparently.

Z0rr0 · 23/09/2020 11:01

Ooh I love it when you get to watch someone peak.
Welcome to the coven.

OldCrony · 23/09/2020 10:42

If you actually believe that being a woman is simply a costume that you can put on and wear (like in a play) then it all makes sense. Of course have to be a fucking idiot to believe this. Don't you?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/09/2020 10:37

Imo what makes the 'blacking up' of the past objectionable in retrospect, in contexts like Laurence of Arabia or Olivier's Moor, was that there presumably wasn't any attempt to find a great Arab or 'moorish' actor. The acting profession was massively white-dominated. Even if there were explicitly non-white European roles, they went to white Europeans. When I was growing up there was Sidney Poitier and... um... no, that's about it. It was perhaps not dissimilar to the theatre in Shakespeare's time, entirely male.

It's a healthy change that whereas a few decades ago, we had "a passage to India' - mostly white characters, with one of the main Indian roles again being taken by Guinness - now we have A Suitable Boy with brilliant Indian actors, with a few white people in appropriate big parts.

In serious theatre, nowadays it's pretty much de rigeur for there to be some sort of 'gender reversal' (if you see stage to screen productions the person introducing always mentions that in hilarious breathy 'ooh how exciting and radical' tones) - mostly this is fine, and can be interesting. And it's done fairly even-handedly. OTOH I wasn't greatly impressed by David Suchet squandering his talents playing Lady Bracknell - one of the relatively few classic parts for an older woman. Coming out lots of people were gushing 'oh, wasn't he maahvelous' ... well, no, he really wasn't, it was a caricature - it would have been much better played by any number of mature women actors.

ColleagueFromMars · 23/09/2020 10:20

Can people who say drag is directed towards gay men expand on that, please? I unstated that a lot of the "artists" are gay men, and that a lot of the followers are gay men, at least until it became more widespread on TV. It still just looks like gay men expressing withering scorn at women to me. I've always found it creepy and breathed a sigh of relief when others said it's sexist as hell because it made sense as to why I found it creepy. But I'm willing to learn.

Comedians dressing up as black people is still problematic because a) you can't disentangle it from the history of blackface and b) it's a white (often man) making jokes at the expense of black person - the power dynamic is that of punching down not a fair match, if that makes sense?

White actors and actresses playing black characters are problematic because why was a white actor/tress chosen instead of a black person to portray the role in the first place? Again, it's within the context of a pre')-existing power imbalance.

Smellbellina · 23/09/2020 10:19

I wondered this when I read this article and posted a thread about it (but didn’t get many many responses so reposting here, sorry to jump on your thread!)

medium.com/@jessakrug/the-truth-and-the-anti-black-violence-of-my-lies-9a9621401f85

’Intention never matters more than impact. To say that I clearly have been battling some unaddressed mental health demons for my entire life, as both an adult and child, is obvious. Mental health issues likely explain why I assumed a false identity initially, as a youth, and why I continued and developed it for so long; the mental health professionals from whom I have been so belatedly seeking help assure me that this is a common response to some of the severe trauma that marked my early childhood and teen years.’

How does this apply to race but not biological sex? I know people don’t like to draw a comparison, my mind is struggling not to.

DeaconBoo · 23/09/2020 10:14

Drag mocks femininity, generally, although can be actually misogynistic. I think it's important not to conflate femininity and being a woman.

queenofknives · 23/09/2020 09:21

As far as drag mocking women, a lot does. But I've generally felt that really, it's a comedy or art form that is really very much directed to gay men, and needs to be understood as playing with or even subverting gender norms and changing their meaning, more than it's really talking about women as women.
Yes, thank you for saying this. I tried to say that drag traditionally isn't about women not so long ago on FWR and got dragged through the mud (maybe a slight exaggeration! I'm not bitter Grin) by women who told me I was being stupid for not agreeing that all drag is misognist mockery of women. I don't believe it is. I've seen a lot of drag acts in gay clubs and yes, a lot of them are terrible, but it's clear that it's most often directed towards gay men and isn't really about women. And yes, it's weird that it's been brought into the mainstream, because part of its inherent function is to be outside the norm. So if you make it 'normal' then it automatically becomes not-drag in the traditional sense. It is especially weird that kids are being introduced to drag as really it is outsider art for adults.

DanglySpider · 23/09/2020 07:01

Thanks everyone for the kind replies and common sense responses - I completely get that it's a complex situation, but recently I've just been so confused over the issues around it all - DH and I ended up having a bit of an argument with DD (21, bi and very woke) around the Adele appropriation argument. She said (because Twitter had fed it to her) that it was outrageous, and we pointed out she had to put it in context, and that she was attending the Notting Hill Carnival festival, where dressing up in costumes is a thing, and that it's all about cultural sharing, and most of the attendees and locals were absolutely fine about it - in fact, they said that the history of the carnival is all about that. (I knew this already from previously being a Londoner, anyhow). SO that makes sense to me - like drag artistry. And I completely think that people of any sex should be supported to live their lives as another gender as far as possible, as long as it doesn't put anyone else's safety or rights at risk of infringement. A while ago, a teenage child of mine sadly decided that they wanted to live with my ex and not see my side of the family at all. We were all devastated, and felt that he'd been brainwashed. As he was a young teenager, we felt we had to go through the motions of going to court to apply for contact, and although we warned as much, the predictable result happened where they ruled that his feelings were paramount, and if he didn't want to see us, he didn't have to. His feelings trumped that of ours and our younger siblings, and that was that. I feel the whole argument of TRAs is much the same - THEY feel that THEY (the minority percentage) have the right to go and do what they want, when they want and how they want, and there's no consideration for the vast majority of women who are being discounted, their safety disregarded, and their rights eroded. Have I got that right?

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