Help fact-check this letter to Liz Truss from 7000+ women

Don't blame excel.

It should be possible to put a list of 7 thousand names into a simple sheet without tabs and just add a column for classifications.

The scariest thing about this letter is the spreadsheet tabs, tbh. Excel [shudders].

Has anyone actually fact-checked the number of signatories? Because I went into the excel spreadsheet to look for names of people I know and it didn't seem like there were 7000+ names on there. To be fair, I might have missed some because I'm not the most handy with excel.

Or have we reached the point that if you identify as a cis woman you are one, whatever your pronouns? I get so confused...

The letter claims to be from 'cis gender women' keen to assure the government there are no problems, but people on twitter have started going through that list and some of those signatories don't identify as cis at all.

Some list of nutters under that!

whilst personally, I agree, on some of those examples, they will argue that they "are" women so it's not
I didn't word that very well - personally I agree with you. On some of those examples, however, they will argue that because they "are" women, then "women" aren't negatively impacted

I cant quite remember at which stage of the will Liz Truss make an anouncement or not, but a few months ago.

Agree that the letter is wrong in so many ways.

But do not think it is worth giving them the oxygen of publicity by refering to it.

It is just a compilation of "facts" from Pink News and Stonewall.

Okay it was part of the orchestrated over reaction to Liz Truzz saying that the EA allows for women only services, and that under 18s should not be eligible for surgery. www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/17/liz-truss-gender-recognition-act-reform-cis-women-open-letter-trans-equality/

This can’t be a real name, can it?!

Sorry me again. Back from the depths - apparently, on a name check sample of some of the signatories the ‘c_ women’ include d_ qs , non c__ women (they/them pronouns in bio) and non UK residents. Hmm

Or maybe they are this daft and desperate?

Also this Sunset :-)

Is there any way for people to verify if the text they saw when they signed the letter is the text now being shown?
I’ve got no idea how these ‘open letters’ work. Interesting how the 7000 odd they have is similar to the open letter we saw recently (to the Scottish gov’t??) - have they seen that letter and want to match it?

my suspicious mind wonders if it is a smokescreen or diversion from something else but I can’t work out what.

I know what you mean. They have tried this tactic so many times now, from similar letters to petitions to flooding the consultation with identikit responses, and it hasn't worked.

Or maybe they are this daft and desperate?

A handful of trans teenagers each year are given puberty blockers

This is an odd statement and obviously incorrect - I’m sure I read that GIDS or GIDS whistleblowers have said that nearly every child of the 3-4000 referred to them over recent years progressed to puberty blockers. (Can’t find the source atm but I’ll keep looking).
It should be very easy to verify for the NHS number of prescriptions but slightly more difficult for the private prescriptions from places like Webberly’s GenderGP It certainly sounds like more than a handful but what an odd way of quantifying this. Also, if they are so life saving and safe, why is it only a handful?
This whole letter is very strange and badly put together - I’m sure the lobbying groups have produced much better quality writing than this - my suspicious mind wonders if it is a smokescreen or diversion from something else but I can’t work out what.

This is despite the fact that several countries have implemented similar reforms to their gender recognition laws without any negative impact to cis women whatsoever.

There is evidence, from every single country that adopted self-id in law and policies, that these have been used for purposes other than the intended.

Mexico: men undermine the democratic process seeking to grant equal representation to women by identifying as women;

US: rape, sexual assaults and harassment, intimidation, physical violence and aggression against women in prison (several law suits), in shelters and refuges for homeless and/or battered women, removal of fair competition in high scholl and college sport leading to the loss of opportunity and scholarships for girls; increase in voyerism and assault in sanitary facilities and changing rooms;

Spain: self-id abused by men tried for domestic violence offences to gain access to their children;

Ireland: a number of exemptions for privacy, now that self-id is being utilised by males who identify as trans and who have not fully (or at all) transitioned, issues are starting to arise;

Norway: self-id used by fully intact male to shower and undress in communal women-only changing area. When challenged by female user, management agrees this is not ok and communicates this to the male. Who does not care, does it again, is challenged again, then sues the woman challenging him for transphobia, discrimination and harassment. Three year journey through various courts results in judgement for the woman. In the judgement, the judge criticises the badly thought out law. Currently the Norwegian government is trying to push through an amendment to their hate crime laws that will make a fair, equitable and above all public discussion about how self-id harms women's rights all but impossible;

Canada: much discussed here, problems in prison, refuges, rape crisis support. Problems with women being sued for offering services specific to women for women only;

UK: self-id policies causing problems in all aspects of life that impact men and women, boys and girls differently.

There's many more examples from other countries, too.

There's no evidence of children identifying as trans prior to the 20th century.

And you also have to question what 'trans' would have meant, given that women's lives were previously so restricted. Women who just wanted to receive an education were accused of being 'unfeminine'.

'Gender marker' - your birth cerificate records your sex, a biological and unchangeable fact about you. Nothing to do with gender.

Exactly, its a copy of the information held on the public register.

The GRA 2004 was written after Goodwin & I v United Kingdom [2002] held that previous law violated the right to marry (no longer relevant) and right to a private live.

It was not intended to formally recognise gender, it was intended to hide sex in cases where disclosure of sex would violate privacy.

On the other hand, Stonewall think that the GRA should recognise 'self determination' of gender which is different.

www.stonewall.org.uk/gender-recognition-act-gra-take-action-trans-equality

'Gender marker' - your birth cerificate records your sex, a biological and unchangeable fact about you. Nothing to do with gender.

'Puberty Blockers' - NHS has recently changed guidelines in line with latest research - I think Prof Carl Hagans assessment, heis Director of the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford - ' An unregulated live experiment on children'

Harm to women? I like to start with sport, very clear. Connecticut female college athletes done out of medals when 2 boys 'identified' as girks and started to run in the girls races. Our own World Rugby guidelines, opposed by Stonewall.

Not having accurate sex data - Prof Alice Sullivan

[quote TheFleegleHasLanded]Anyway, over 7000 of us signed a different kind of letter....

twitter.com/WomenUnitingUK/status/1272920955623333888?s=20[/quote]
Ah, good to see. And people are still signing. And I had already, it seems!

Trans men, women and non-binary people young and old have always lived among us.

There's no evidence of children identifying as trans prior to the 20th century.

Not in the historical records, not in the extensively documented medical records of the Romans and Greeks, and much more importantly, prior to Money, there's also nothing in the work of the child psychologists who've been studying all manner of disorders in children for 150 years or so. It's all in the last fifty to sixty years.

This is despite the fact that several countries have implemented similar reforms to their gender recognition laws without any negative impact to cis women whatsoever.

These are countries with different legal systems. Specifically in the UK, women's rights are protected by the EA which uses the protected characteristic of sex. If the word sex has no objective meaning, the protected characteristic cannot be defined.

These transphobic groups also argue against any gender-affirming healthcare for trans under-18’s

Explain 'transphobic'. Explain 'gender affirming healthcare'.

Trans men, women and non-binary people young and old have always lived among us.

Define these words, particularly non-binary.

Trans equality was not widely seen as an issue until the Transgender Equality Inquiry of 2015 triggered a concerted campaign in the media to depict trans rights as a new threat to cisgender women like ourselves.

Please don't apply the term 'cisgender' generally and assume that all women feel affinity with a gender stereotype. The 2015 Inquiry raised concerns because the submission by Stonewall asked for sex based exemptions in the GRA, e.g. for sport to be removed. Plenty of trans women understand why this is a problem.

We reject this assessment. As cisgender women, we are angry that these groups claim to speak for us

No, the women who object to the GRA speak for themselves. You are also welcome to express your views.

bigotry against a vulnerable minority

No, women are concerned about men, who are not a vulnerable minority. However, if you want to continue to describe trans people as a vulnerable minority, you might need a clear definition for 'trans'.

organisations such as Stonewall

Stonewall have made it clear that they are happy for women to be seriously injured on the rugby pitch. I wouldn't listen to them.